292. From Shame to Worthiness: Living Your Creative Genius with Marisa Handler

[00:00:06] Welcome back to Girl, Take the Lead!, the podcast where we challenge the status quo, share meaningful conversations and explore what it really means to find our voice and lead with intention. And I'm your host, Yolanda Canny. Have you ever felt that you've spent part of your life trying to be who others expected you to be? Perhaps you've been the achiever, the caretaker, the people pleaser, or the one who always seemed to have it all.

[00:00:36] You've put it all together and then one day you find yourself wondering, who am I underneath all of that? Today's guest has spent much of her life helping people answer that question. I'm delighted to welcome Marisa Handler, award-winning author, prize-winning poet, singer, songwriter, and creative coach.

[00:01:01] Marisa's work lives in the intersection of personal transformation, creativity, and what she calls living your genius. In this conversation, we explore how fear, grief, anger, and even shame can become unexpected guides on the path back to ourselves.

[00:01:21] We talk about authenticity, creativity, leadership, and even the courage it takes to stop performing our lives and start living them. Along the way, Marisa shares a beautiful poem called Grace and even sings a portion of her song, Seed and Star.

[00:01:44] It's a thoughtful and inspiring conversation about trusting yourself, reclaiming your voice, and remembering that your worth was never something you had to earn. Let's jump in. Here you go. Marisa, welcome to Girl Take the Lead. This is going to be such a fun conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Yo. I'm happy to be here. Sure. Yeah. Let's kick things off with, if you would tell our listeners a bit about your background.

[00:02:14] Yeah. I am originally from South Africa. We moved when I was quite young. And gosh, there's a lot I could say, but what I'll perhaps most briefly say is that what I do, I'm a writer, I'm a singer, and I'm a coach. And my life's work is really helping people, generally women, it's usually women who come to me,

[00:02:41] stop performing their lives and start really living them from their full aliveness and authenticity and power and joy. So performing, let's talk a little bit more about that part. Yeah. I mean, we're all subject to this. I think we all wear many masks, and these masks are often things that got us through, things that we really needed.

[00:03:10] And I imagine this is true of your listeners, that we get to a certain point in life where they're sort of just old wiring, like dinosaurs in there that don't really serve us anymore. And I think women especially, you know, we're so inculcated to really be caregivers and caretakers of others and pacifying or fawning or whatever it is.

[00:03:41] It can be a real journey to come into our true selves, to even discover who and what that is, and then to step into that, and then to really show that and give that to the world. Because in my experience, and I've worked with, at this point, hundreds, if not thousands of people, it's a real gift when we actually do that.

[00:04:07] You know, we really each are here with something very distinct and particular. And when we can fully step into that, step into, if you will, our genius, we give that to others. We are much more kind of online in all the ways. We're lit up in ways that, you know, we're not dampening ourselves. We're not shutting things down. And that draws people.

[00:04:35] You know, it draws people. We find our tribe. There's just so many benefits. And when we are authentic, we naturally shine. So it's not a question of performing, shining, you know, performing something. It's just there. Yeah. What comes to mind for me is that performing is, as you said, not being true to yourself and to your authenticity, but almost meeting somebody else's expectations.

[00:05:06] That's right. That's right. Like, and we're so good at being chameleons, you know, in this dynamic, I'm like this. In that dynamic, I'm like this, you know, in the work situation with that, you know, colleague, whatever. But it's, and it's not that those ways haven't served us. And it's not that sometimes, you know, like there are situations we do need to be a little tougher or a little softer or whatever it might be. You know, in working with people, I'm pretty emphatic around.

[00:05:35] We actually really want to love up these old ways of being that have served us. That maybe, maybe we're survival at some point. But, but when there's a gap between that and who we genuinely are, that's where our energy is leaking out. Yeah. I know that after being in corporate for so long, I found it hard to determine what I cared about.

[00:06:01] Like what was my voice in things, which is how the podcast kind of got started because I was like, what do I think about that? I don't know. I need, you know, so it was, I totally get how we can lose that. Like that's a beautiful example. Like you saying, well, what do I even, you know, what is my voice led you through a journey that, that resulted in this where you're reaching people through your own.

[00:06:27] Like that's what happens when we kind of get curious and come into what feels real. Yeah. So what was your evolution to become this coach and, you know, agent of change and creativity? Yeah. You know, I think things really big in kind of in a certain way gotten going.

[00:06:51] When we left South Africa, I was about a month shy of 12 and, and, you know, well, they started earlier growing up as a white child in, in a potate South Africa, in a society that was, you know, profoundly divided and just wrong on so many levels. And yet, you know, it was what I knew.

[00:07:13] And we were very connected in terms of community and to the land and, and then coming to Southern California and that, that rupture really, that rupture with everything that was familiar, our extended family, you know, my teachers and friends and community. And I think in a sense that began a journey of like, well, what is home?

[00:07:43] Where is home? How does home manifest? And, you know, ultimately where that took me was not a place, but a sense of home is authenticity in the self. You know, it's really, can I come home to, to this one here, to what's true and, you know, and real. And so there's been lots of different, you know, parts to that journey.

[00:08:12] And I've always been deeply creative so that, you know, this began manifesting in ways that were, that were creative. But even that, it was a journey to, you know, I went, I was writing as a young adult, I was writing and publishing, but it, it, I was doing a lot of activism, but I went back and got my, my MFA in creative writing at 31. It took me a while to, to, to, to give myself full permission to really sink into, into, into creativity.

[00:08:43] What are some of the blocks you've seen with people that you've worked with? Is it kind of this thing we were just talking about, like meeting somebody else's expectation or what else do you see there? Yeah.

[00:08:56] I mean, I think this can manifest in different ways and I'll, I'll, I'll speak to some of them, but fundamentally it's like the, the block as it manifests, it's, it's almost always an unfelt feeling that's hardened into a belief. Mm-hmm. So it might be, you know, for many of us on some level, developmentally, like I'm not safe.

[00:09:25] I'm not safe in my friend group. I'm not safe with this parent. I'm not safe if I am authentically myself, right? And so I'm going to need to do the kinds of things that keep me safe. And this can, again, this can show up in so many different ways, whether it's control or, you know, a certain fawning or fighting, a certain like trauma response.

[00:09:53] Um, but generally it comes down to that. It's like when I'm working with clients, um, or students, uh, it's about getting, getting into like, what's the belief and what's underneath that belief, which can be a whole world. And, and really coming into loving accompaniment with, um, with the underlying fear.

[00:10:17] It's usually fear, you know, I mean, fear is underneath resistance fear, you know, it's underneath a lot of things and, um, and beginning to let someone see for themselves that the nervous system see that actually it's, it might just be safe to be me. Hmm.

[00:10:38] Well, I wonder too, when you were talking about fear and do the, do the emotions that come out of those beliefs, are they kind of connected to each other? And do you see, are there, is that why emotions are so important to be able to observe them? Oh yeah. I mean, they, they, yeah, it's, it's usually not, it's, it's, it's very rarely just one simple thing. It's usually very much connected.

[00:11:03] And, um, you know, the, the Latin root for emotion is movere, which is, I mean, it's move, you know, it's like literally around movement and emotions are their weather. You know, they need to move and where we get stuck in this can lead to illness as well as, you know, all kinds of, you know, depression or anxiety is when it's not, when that's not moving.

[00:11:26] And again, when they're not moving, when we're shutting things down or blocking them, we're doing it for good reason, because at some point that meant survival, it meant safety, it meant belonging, it meant getting love, whatever it meant. And, you know, when we can begin to allow these places to, to, to, to move, uh, that's when everything changes.

[00:11:49] Usually, you know, there's some, what I've seen is there's, yeah, there's, there's a, there can be a whole sort of range of weather systems in there. Um, fear is often the sentinel at the gate, you know, it's the one that's like, Oh, you know, like just stay out.

[00:12:07] Yeah. And I actually think when I encounter, you know, when I'm working with someone or with, in my group program, when that comes up, I actually take it as good news because fear, if it's coming up, it means that, that, that gate is beginning to maybe creak open a little bit. Um, and it's, it's, it's a, it's a real harbinger of change of the possibility of change.

[00:12:33] So it's almost never like when fear is speaking, it's almost never what it says it's about almost never, you know, it's actually the sentinel at the gate of the next version of you. So can we learn to like, Ooh, okay. This is, this is scary. You know, this is a lot like, can I stay with this?

[00:13:00] Can I, you know, tolerate this instead of just acting or reacting in response to it, shutting down, closing off, whatever, you know, like no way can I do that, whatever it might be. Um, and, and, and when we can do that, other things will begin to move. So is there an example?

[00:13:22] Cause like, I'm, I want to just make sure that I'm seeing it for myself because I'm thinking, okay, I can have an emotion. I see the emotion is, you know, maybe anger. Okay. And it, it gives me a clue that there's something going on for me. I need to dig in and take a look at it. Is that kind of, and you're saying that's a good thing. Cause it is a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. Break some stuff up so that I can, can handle things differently.

[00:13:52] Um, but I think you were, you were pointing at some other things there too, that could help. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I mean, I want to just say about anger that, I mean, cause each of these is a, I see each of these as a doorway. I just, I just want to say that like each of these is a key doorway. Anger is, it's a boundary that hasn't yet found its voice. You know, it's, it's excellent information. It's real data.

[00:14:18] And when we stop suppressing anger, and this is especially for women, this is so big, you know, um, it really can become clarity and genuine power. Like, this is where I stand. This is the boundary. Um, grief. I, I, I want to just touch on each of these a little bit around like where they, what they are portals to, you know, when we hit grief.

[00:14:43] And typically, again, when I'm working with someone, each of these comes up, um, shame tends to be right at the bottom. So I'll, I'll get to that in a minute. But, um, but grief is often, I mean, when grief comes up and it comes up in a big way, it may be grief that we've holding on. We've been holding onto for a long time and it wasn't able to move. You know, we may be mourning, uh, the loss of a parent who suddenly was, you know, abandoned us or there was some kind of neglect.

[00:15:11] But when it can really move, it's a portal to our deep belonging. It takes us into, back into the circle. You know, grief is almost always around some level of, I don't belong. I'm exiled. I'm abandoned. I'm not good enough, whatever it is. And when we truly open to the power of it, um, it brings us back into that circle. It brings us back into our belonging.

[00:15:41] Shame. Um, wow. Like shame is such a big one. And it's, it's so often what shuts, what shuts women down, what keeps us from stepping onto a path that does feel more true to us. Um, shame says, you know, you're the problem, not the situation, but you. Like there is something intrinsically wrong with you and you are more broken than everybody else. You know, if we really get up close and personal with our shame and it takes so much courage to do this.

[00:16:10] I really want to emphasize this. Um, off. I see this. I mean, it's, it's ironic because I see over and over this place and people saying, actually, I'm uniquely broken. Nobody else is, you know, nobody else is quite as wrong as me. Yeah.

[00:16:29] And, and, and that just kills creativity, you know, it's so, so, but, but when we can work with shame and do work with it in a way that that's effective, it brings us into an unquestioned sense of our, of our worth. Yeah. Yeah. Of a worth that is so much deeper than what I, like what I'm achieving, how I'm presenting, how I'm being perceived.

[00:16:54] Am I taking care of this person's, you know, it's, it's, it's a much deeper sense of worth. Um. Do you think that, um, shame guards secrets? Like, it just seems like it's the biggest secret we're walking around with. It's yes, that's exactly, that's exactly right. And I mean, I, I've had my own real journey around this.

[00:17:22] Um, I had a, you know, I, I, one of the themes I teach on is navigating the dark night of the soul. And I often work with people who are, who are really going through a very, very difficult time. And I know for myself, I'd been this, you know, very high achieving, um, young woman. And then, uh, I, I completely fell apart. You know, I was, I, I had graduated from my MFA program. I'd gotten a Fulbright to work on a novel in, in India.

[00:17:49] It looked really good from the outside. Um, and on the inside, I was just getting more and more anxious. And I got to Varanasi, India, and I just, I stopped sleeping. I was just stuck in panic and terror and, uh, you just really floored. Like who, who is this woman here? I just, I don't even know who this is. And I ended up coming, coming home from India and, and really just navigating my way through a breakdown.

[00:18:19] I wasn't able to work. Um, I was scared to go to the grocery store. I was so tired that getting dressed in the morning felt like too much, you know, it was, it was that, it was that intense and extreme. And, um, you know, it was, it was a process of working my way through and I'm going to, but I'm going to fast forward ahead to when I had emerged sufficiently.

[00:18:43] One of the reasons that I, that I began to, that I wrote and published about my experience was because the shame had been so oppressive. It was as bad as the experience itself, I would say. And I, I like just to go from being someone who people, you know, kind of admired to this person who was barely functioning. Um, I had heavy, heavy shame around it.

[00:19:09] I came out of the closet because I wanted to spare other people that kind of shame. Mm-hmm. And in telling my secret, cause it had been, you know, like only the closest people to me really knew. And even that, like they were really struggling to understand. Um, I, it felt like a really necessary step. Um, and, and, and what I, you know, what I discovered, I mean, that piece, it actually kind of went viral.

[00:19:38] And it was so interesting. It was, that was a very deep learning for me around what, what we're all holding onto, you know, what's, or what so many of us are holding onto this terrible secret that we think, you know, and, and, and then when we kind of spill the beans. Yeah. And I've seen this with, this is not only my own journey, you know, I've seen this with, with clients that I work with, that when we can be that degree of vulnerable and authentic, um, we really get met in amazing ways.

[00:20:08] We do. We do. Yeah. It's like all the spirits come by and pick us up and keep us going. Completely. Because it's so clear, like we're so clear about it. So I know my, my listeners would love to know how they could read what you wrote about that. And is it in your book or is it? That essay it's on, um, my website, which is a good home for everything. It's marisahandler.com.

[00:20:34] Um, and, uh, there's a lot there, but if, if you go to the writings, um, the writing page, uh, there's, I think there's a few pieces there on, um, the dark night. Getting through the dark night. Yeah. I know that, um, one of the things that, that we talked about was what you've written about grace. Yeah. And your poem. Um, can you treat our audience to reading that for us? Gladly. Yeah.

[00:21:04] Grace. I believe in grace. I believe in the black market currency of the unknown. Fresh pennies in deep sea caves and the dream that loiters oblique. I believe in the weave and heft of the small things we mostly neglect to see.

[00:21:31] Dandelion and anemone and relentless ant. I believe in the mercy of solitude and the kindness of trees. I believe in dancing with its wide faith, its surrender to the body's malted hungers. I believe we are all waiting out the rays.

[00:21:59] Even as our legs collapse beneath us, our eyes scour the heavens for evidence of what we know and have known and will again forget. I believe in grace. Oh boy. I hope our listeners closed your eyes and took that in or kind of play it again so that it's just so beautiful.

[00:22:28] Thank you. It really does help us feel the grace that we want to get to and live our life with and be on the other side of. So I appreciate that you've written that and that you've shared that with us. Thank you. The thing I want to just say about that poem. You know that the takeaway, I'm generally hesitant to explain poetry, but the takeaway here is grace isn't something that you earn.

[00:22:56] It's something that you stop resisting. Nice. Very nice. One of the things that we were talking about was how creativity relates to leadership. Yeah. And you have some thoughts on that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So creativity and leadership. Wow.

[00:23:23] I think these two are so intertwined. And the most powerful leaders that I know, they're not necessarily the ones with the best strategy. They're the ones who know themselves well enough to tell the truth in a room. So creativity, it is that capacity.

[00:23:49] It's the capacity to see what isn't there yet and make it real. Yeah. And I think every act of genuine leadership is on some level creative, really. You know, and this is especially why women, I think, need to really reclaim this because we've been taught to manage, you know, to handle, to react, to respond, to caretake, not to create.

[00:24:19] I think we bring empathy and other insights into the room that others don't see. Yes. That we can offer. I love what you said, though, about almost every leadership act being creative because in the moment, there's no roadmap. Right.

[00:24:49] You're creating each time you're making a decision or you're, you know, mobilizing people or doing whatever. It's no one has done it before exactly the way that you're going to do it. That's right. That's right. And what you spoke to is key. You know, women, the empathy, the, you know, that gives us the gifts of reading the room, right? Of sensing into what's happening.

[00:25:16] And also, I mean, I don't even want to be instrumental about it. Like empathy itself is tremendous. It is a gift. You know, it's a gift to others just are embodying that. And I think the leadership part is where, you know, we can read that room and we can speak the truth.

[00:25:37] Like there's enough self-knowledge and connection with our voice to say what needs to be said, even if it's not always what wants to be heard. Maybe there's trust there too, that we trust ourselves. That in the moment, we're going to know what to do. That's right. Exactly. Yes.

[00:26:04] And it's trusting something deeper than our, and this is where, again, creativity and leadership really overlap. It's something deeper than our like planning, caretaking mind. Yeah. But a deeper trust in just, in who we are, in our internal ground, in our, in our own goodness, you know, even if we're being perceived otherwise. Yeah.

[00:26:27] I want to go back a little bit to the creative process a bit because I found myself yesterday, I was working on a card. You know, my listeners know that I have a online store and I, and I was making a card and it was almost this experience of the colors coming through me. It was wild. And it was like, I could see the, it was like lights and color.

[00:26:55] And, you know, when I sat down, I knew nothing about what that card was going to look like. And in fact, I was going down one direction and I went, oh no, this is not, this is not it. Then I kept trying to presence the person that I was doing the card for and his energy and his light. And I went, oh, okay. Got it. Bright colors. He's bright.

[00:27:25] He's, you know, got this huge energy. And then it, it, it all just started to fall. And I went, that is pretty cool. Beautiful. Yeah. That, I mean, that when, when I'm working with someone and that happens, I get very excited. Cause I'm like, that's the, that's the, the channel is open, you know, and that's, and that's, I think that's why we love, even those of us who don't consider ourselves creative.

[00:27:52] And I believe everybody's creative and believe we all have this, it can manifest in very different ways. But that's when we, it's almost like we've moved out of the way enough, you know, there's enough openness. There's enough, whatever is, you know, work we've done on our side, whatever it might be that the channel can really open and something beautiful can come through.

[00:28:12] And this is what, you know, as a creator myself, this is possibly the, my favorite part of, of the creative act is that kind of like I'm dancing, I'm co-creating with something bigger than me. And I'm, and I'm dancing with it, you know, and it's mysterious and it's, I'm discovering what's happening as I go, you know, and it's a very intuitive process. Like what you were saying, like, oh yeah, this doesn't feel quite right. Okay. Let's do that. Let's try that.

[00:28:41] You know, that's the creative act. And, and, and it sounds to me like you, you, the channel was open and things were moving through and I just. It really felt the ability to abandon something too, that wasn't working. Yes. The, the willingness to surrender to that and to say, okay, no, no, no. It's a different direction. It's something like this.

[00:29:08] Um, yeah, that was pretty joyful in the moment. Beautiful. Yeah. And women, I want to emphasize that women know how to do this. We, we, we know how to feel and like on the level of the heart of the gut and not quite. Nope. Doesn't really land. We may not always have language for it. Um, and this is not like prefrontal cortex operating here. You know, it's deeper. We know how to do this. You know, we really do. Yeah.

[00:29:38] Yeah. Yeah. Now you're just such a creative soul that I wonder if you have a favorite form of expression. I mean, you write and you sing and you write poems and books and you coach people and you work with their souls. I mean, is it just all of it that you love or is there something really close to you? I actually do love it all.

[00:30:05] I feel tremendously grateful and privileged really to be able to live both my vocations, you know, as, as artist and writer and also as, as, as coach, healer, guide. And, and I, in terms of just the arts, I would say, you know, language and song are, are my favorites, you know, language, um, language is at least filtered through the mind.

[00:30:34] And song, I think goes directly to the body and, and, and, and we need both to actually change, you know, and, and, and then the coaching work, you know, the work that I do, um, and live your creative genius, my group program, the work I do one-on-one. That is the change happening in the moment. And I, I, I, I feel like I just want to bow at the feet of the, of that process because, um, for me, it actually is highly creative, that process.

[00:31:03] I, um, you know, I have a sense of what a client's needs are, what their blocks are. Um, and then it's really about what's alive in the moment when we meet. And, um, and that too is a dance, you know, it's, it's, it's. Um, they're drawing from, they're the ones in their body and, and mind and heart. Like they're the experts on themselves.

[00:31:28] And so then it's me drawing from, from this toolkit to, to meet that wisdom and a little bit more to the right here, a little more to the left, you know, like, um, we all have a lot of internal wisdom. I think of, of my work as, as helping usher that to the fore. Yeah. Well, one of the things you were going to treat us to is either singing a little bit for us or telling us the lyrics to one of your songs.

[00:31:57] Can you do that for us? Gladly. Yeah. So this is, um, this is Seed and Star. It's a song. It's on all the things. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's been really sweet to watch it and make its way into the world and hear from listeners. And it's, um, okay. So I'm going to take a breath because I need to shift gears slightly to tap into my singing voice here.

[00:32:22] So, do you know what you are? You are seed and star. Don't forget. You are strong between earth and heaven.

[00:32:46] Read between the lines, dear. Love is what you will find here. And the song goes on, but that's a part of a verse in the chorus. Yeah.

[00:33:15] Well, I need my breath right now. Cause I was so touched. I'm like crying over here. Oh, it just really touched my heart to hear you sing that and to hear the words. And I'm sure our listeners feel the same way. I hope they're all driving safely. Getting further tissues. Oh, thank you for doing that. That was just so, so touching. I just so appreciated that. Okay.

[00:33:45] Yeah. It's, you know, it's funny. You'd mentioned that song and I thought that this is a good one to sing, but that the chorus line, like read between the lines, dear. Love is what you find here. I feel like it's them. It's kind of on some level, it's underlying everything I do. Cause you, you know, like you were asking about that. It's that's probably it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gorgeous. So how can our listeners get started with you? I mean, your mood and the way you are, it's just, I imagine.

[00:34:15] Some of them are going to want to reach out to you. Yeah. Thank you. Um, there's so marisahandler.com. That's the best place to start. Um, uh, there is, we have a really easy, fun way to dip in is, uh, creative archetypes quiz, which is kind of surprisingly informative. I made this with, with Claude. Um, and it basically, um, it, it tells you what your creative archetype is and, um, and,

[00:34:45] and really kind of how to follow that. It's something, it's something true about who you are and, and, and your gifts. Um, one-on-one work, uh, you can apply for a free breakthrough session. This is where we come together in really in sacred space to look at what your, your deepest, like your biggest vision is. And, um, and, uh, and also what may be the obstacles, you know, what, what the blocks that

[00:35:14] you've been holding and then talk about how, how to really bring that to life, you know, with specific steps, whether we work together or not. Um, and the other, the other, I mean, and this is really key and actually our next cohort starts in September, uh, live your creative genius, which is a nine month, uh, in-depth group coaching program where we really do a lot of what I've been speaking about. We do this work together in community over time.

[00:35:43] Um, and that's where the real transformation happens. It's, um, you know, the women who have graduated from this program consistently call it life-changing. It's about fully stepping into, into our authentic selves and working from there. Um, and, and truly living our genius, not just producing, um, but, but coming into a place

[00:36:09] of, um, of, of ease and flow around that. Um, so yeah, if you're, you know, if you're listening to this and interested in going deeper, I'd love to hear from you. There's the breakthrough sessions and all of these are good ways in. So Marisa, I asked all my guests this question. What would you tell your 20 something self today? Oh gosh, I tell her a lot, but I'd probably, cause that 20 something, she could have, she could

[00:36:38] use it, but I would say, you know, I would start with saying, stop, stop trying to be impressive. Um, and really, and start trying to be real, you know, the impressive part, let it take care of itself, but yeah, come into contact with who you really truly are and what you really truly want, not what you think you should want and let that lead. Love that. And lastly, did you get a chance to go to our online store?

[00:37:07] Or is there something I can say? I love it. Yeah. So my favorite was, um, be you, the world will adjust. I mean, it's just so, it's like, that's exactly what I'm saying here and you just nailed it. That's, that's my favorite one. You know, it's just, it's just, yeah. It's also my messiest one, which is why I love doing it. I love it. Like visually as well. I just, yeah.

[00:37:33] I mean, it just, I think it really speaks to so much, particularly with women, like be, be who you are. You know, emotions are not the problem. They're the map, you know, these, the, the mess is it's the obstacle. That's the portal. You know, it's the, it's the way through, um, all of it. Yeah. Oh, well, thank you so much.

[00:37:54] I think it was just such a, an amazing episode and I loved working with you and, um, your light. It was just amazing. It's brilliant. So thank you so much. It's been a, it's been a real pleasure and really right back at you. Like I, it's just a delight to talk to you and feel your warmth and love and care. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

[00:38:23] My sincere thanks to Marisa for such a thoughtful and heartfelt conversation. One of the ideas that stayed with me from this episode is Marisa's insight that shame tells us where the problem while worthiness reminds us that our value was never in question to begin with. Here are three reflections to carry with you.

[00:38:46] One fear is often the doorway to growth, not a sign to turn back to creativity. Creativity isn't reserved for artists. It's a way of trusting ourselves and bringing something new into the world. And three, and perhaps most importantly, our worth is not something we earn through achievement, approval, or performance.

[00:39:13] It's something that's been with us all along. If you'd like to learn more about Marisa, check our show notes. We've got all her links there. Next week on Girl Take the Lead, we'll be joined by author, podcaster, speaker, and leadership advocate, Cheryl Robinson. As a Girl Scout leader for more than 20 years and a member of the Girl Scouts of Wisconsin

[00:39:36] Badgerland Council, highest awards committee, Cheryl has seen firsthand how service projects help young women develop confidence, leadership skills, and a lifelong belief in their ability to make a difference. We'll explore the transformative power of the Girl Scout Gold Award, the highest award a high school Girl Scout can earn, and discuss how these experiences help young women discover

[00:40:04] their gifts, talents, and ability to create positive change in their communities. It's an inspiring conversation about leadership, service, and impact one person can have when they choose to lead. You won't want to miss it. I'm telling you, there's a lot of hope when you listen to these stories. As always, thank you for listening and for being part of this community.

[00:40:28] Until next time, listen inward, lead outward, and remember, your worth was never something you had to earn. Take care. Talk soon. Bye.