163. Rethinking Grit: Embracing the Quit with Nicole Trick Steinbach PART 1 of 2

[00:00:08] Welcome to episode 163 of Girl, Take the Lead, where each week we explore womanhood and leadership. And I'm your host, Yolani.

[00:00:18] One of the wonderful things about podcasting is the amazing people you meet. And one of those is Nicole Trick Steinbach, who returns to our show.

[00:00:29] And you may remember her from episode 113, titled Dare to Be Brave, Conquer Failure and Learn Bravery as a Skill.

[00:00:41] You might also remember she has a very successful podcast, Build Your Brave Career.

[00:00:48] Today, Nicole and I are discussing the book Quit, The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away by Annie Duke.

[00:00:56] Annie Duke is a former professional poker player who earned more than $4 million in tournament poker before retiring in 2021.

[00:01:11] And boy, did Nicole and I have fun diving in, finding our own insights and then discussing them together.

[00:01:20] So much so, we ended up talking and talking. And rather than cut our discussion, I've broken the conversation into two parts.

[00:01:29] And this is part one where we'll cover quit versus grit and what's valued. Defining success for ourselves. Intersectional identity and staying too long.

[00:01:47] Nicole's time to leave scale.

[00:01:51] Risk and expected value.

[00:01:55] Whispers, missiles and bricks.

[00:02:00] And lastly, at the moment manager.

[00:02:05] Enjoy the listen. There you go.

[00:02:07] There you go.

[00:02:09] Oh, Nicole, welcome back to Girl Tank the Lead, man. You are such a girl taking the lead and I'm so excited to do this episode with you.

[00:02:18] And welcome back.

[00:02:20] Thank you. I'm stoked.

[00:02:23] I got to come back. That's like super exciting, right? It's like dance at people's weddings and get invited back. Very exciting.

[00:02:31] Well, you had talked about this book in one of your newsletters and everybody should sign up for her newsletter and get on board with that.

[00:02:41] And you talked about this book and how impactful it was for you. And I went, oh my God, I got to get the book.

[00:02:47] I got to read it. And then I reached out to you and say, hey, would you want to do an episode on it? And you go, oh my God, you won't be able to shut me up.

[00:02:54] So at this moment, I always like to remind us that our dearly beloved Desmond Tutu also said, I will not shut up.

[00:03:02] So I'm walking beyond footprints that are hallowed.

[00:03:08] And we could put in Madeline Albright in there too.

[00:03:11] Oh, yeah. She said that pretty well as well.

[00:03:14] Okay, everybody. So let's start first though by telling the listeners who didn't hear our episode with you.

[00:03:20] I think that was like, I don't know, 113. I'll have it in the show notes though so everyone can listen to it if you want to.

[00:03:28] Because Nicole says these wonderful things to say about being brave and courageous.

[00:03:35] But let's hear from her.

[00:03:37] Yeah. Okay. So I am a woman in tech. I coach women in technology.

[00:03:44] I'm also a mother. I'm a former immigrant. I lived in Germany for 13 years, and I'm a big reader and a big traveler.

[00:03:53] So work sent me to over 25 countries while I was living in Germany and in the United States.

[00:03:58] And then I have traveled to a good number of countries.

[00:04:01] And one of my joys in life is eating food.

[00:04:05] I don't know.

[00:04:07] Described in a language.

[00:04:09] I can't speak.

[00:04:11] And that is an example of bravery, right?

[00:04:15] Because I didn't grow up with that.

[00:04:17] And so there are few things that I argue are very different from what I've heard.

[00:04:24] But also just in how I live my life.

[00:04:26] Bravery is a skill, not a personality trait.

[00:04:31] I am not naturally bright.

[00:04:33] I would skip a lot of things except for I have goals.

[00:04:39] I have desires.

[00:04:42] I want to move towards things.

[00:04:43] I would skip a lot of things except for I have goals.

[00:04:46] I have desires.

[00:04:48] I want to move towards things.

[00:04:50] And that starts with clarity.

[00:04:51] That's the first part of bravery is a skill

[00:04:54] because you can build it.

[00:04:55] That's the second truth.

[00:04:56] And the first part is clarity.

[00:04:59] And then the second part is momentum.

[00:05:02] And for my women in tech, women in STEM out there

[00:05:04] which I think you have a lot of those listeners.

[00:05:07] I hope so.

[00:05:08] Momentum includes feelings.

[00:05:11] So you got to feel your feels and take your actions.

[00:05:14] And then the third part is accountability

[00:05:16] which is to yourself.

[00:05:17] It's not governance or control.

[00:05:19] It's to yourself.

[00:05:20] Who do you want to be?

[00:05:21] And how do you want to become her?

[00:05:23] And so I wanted to be the person

[00:05:24] who came back on this podcast.

[00:05:25] So here we are.

[00:05:28] Tell our listeners about your podcast though

[00:05:30] before we get into this.

[00:05:31] Oh, right.

[00:05:32] So they can find you.

[00:05:33] Yeah, so my podcast is,

[00:05:35] I just rebranded a couple of months ago.

[00:05:37] It's build your brave career.

[00:05:41] And that was also a really brave move

[00:05:42] because it originally had a different name

[00:05:44] called celebrate brave, which was my best intention

[00:05:46] which is getting us already into the book quit.

[00:05:51] And it was effective for a little while

[00:05:53] but I asked my listeners and my community

[00:05:57] for feedback specific, general, helpful, supportive

[00:06:02] whatever, critical, encouraging.

[00:06:05] And it just kept coming back with

[00:06:08] your name doesn't really reflect what you're doing.

[00:06:11] And what I'm doing is I'm hosting women in tech

[00:06:14] in the industry of tech.

[00:06:15] So that's everything from sales

[00:06:17] all the way to customer support

[00:06:19] to share their brave career stories.

[00:06:22] These are unique.

[00:06:23] These are personal.

[00:06:25] So that the loneliness we as a group

[00:06:29] as a community, women in tech continue to report

[00:06:33] that we can break that down.

[00:06:34] We can realize that bravery and success

[00:06:37] are uniquely defined.

[00:06:38] It's no longer about a gold watch after 50 years.

[00:06:43] It's about fulfilling less stress, right?

[00:06:47] Creating a legacy you enjoy,

[00:06:48] building relationships that matter to you

[00:06:50] getting onto amazing podcasts, stuff like that.

[00:06:53] So and then in between I share my insights

[00:06:57] from my clients or from my own experience

[00:07:00] from interesting trends that are happening

[00:07:02] in our industry, around our industry

[00:07:05] and spoiler alert all industries or tech industries

[00:07:07] but anyways, moving on.

[00:07:10] So come join.

[00:07:11] Yeah, oh really?

[00:07:13] And I'll have, I was also a guest on her show

[00:07:17] and was just so honored to be there.

[00:07:18] So I'll have a link to that so you can listen to us

[00:07:21] laugh a lot because we did laugh a lot.

[00:07:24] And we kind of feed off of each other's energy

[00:07:27] that way which is so good.

[00:07:29] So okay, so this book is called

[00:07:35] and I'll have of course a link to it,

[00:07:37] Quit the Power of Knowing When to Walk Away

[00:07:41] and it's by Annie Duke.

[00:07:44] And gosh there's some great people on the cover.

[00:07:48] Seth Gordon is just like a few people

[00:07:51] who have given it a thumbs up.

[00:07:56] One of the most interesting things to me

[00:07:58] was who Annie Duke was.

[00:08:01] Yes.

[00:08:02] Huh, right?

[00:08:04] She won like over $4 million plain poker.

[00:08:11] Poker, I was like a grad student, right?

[00:08:13] Yeah, it was like.

[00:08:16] And one of the testimonials I said

[00:08:18] something said something like,

[00:08:19] well who else could write a book like this

[00:08:21] other than a poker player

[00:08:23] in terms of when to walk away, right?

[00:08:25] When to fold them and when to walk away.

[00:08:27] Yeah, when to hold them.

[00:08:29] Exactly.

[00:08:30] Yeah.

[00:08:32] And I think from probably our different lenses,

[00:08:37] I'm sure Nicole was looking at it

[00:08:38] through the lens of career.

[00:08:41] Yes.

[00:08:41] And so we'll kind of talk a little bit about that

[00:08:44] but I also thought the book was kind of

[00:08:47] about almost anything.

[00:08:48] It could be about relationships.

[00:08:50] It could be about anything that you were taking on

[00:08:53] when you have to make the decision, right?

[00:08:55] To either leave or stay.

[00:08:59] Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:00] And the process could be kind of the same

[00:09:02] no matter what we go into.

[00:09:04] What really blew me away is really early.

[00:09:08] She talks about Lindsey Vonn

[00:09:11] who for everyone was a top Olympian

[00:09:15] and finally was all but forced to

[00:09:21] by her body that she had to quit.

[00:09:26] This is at the very beginning in the prologue even.

[00:09:30] And in the post that Lindsey Vonn shares,

[00:09:33] she actually says, I'm gonna read it.

[00:09:35] My body is broken beyond repair

[00:09:37] and it isn't letting me have the final season

[00:09:39] I dreamed of.

[00:09:40] My body is screaming at me to stop

[00:09:42] and it was time for me to listen.

[00:09:45] And then later on says, I always say never give up.

[00:09:48] So to all the kids out there,

[00:09:49] to my fans who have sent me messages

[00:09:51] of encouragement to keep going,

[00:09:52] I need to tell you that I am not giving up.

[00:09:54] I am starting a new chapter.

[00:09:56] And I was like, okay, so Lindsey

[00:09:59] and Nicole Tric Steinbach have a lot in common.

[00:10:04] And Yolanda Canning too

[00:10:05] because of the warrior nature of my background.

[00:10:10] And I think that's one of the great things

[00:10:12] she brings up, right?

[00:10:13] Yes.

[00:10:14] That we look at the one that quits

[00:10:20] as almost cowardly

[00:10:23] and the person who actually has the grit

[00:10:29] and sticks to it as the hero.

[00:10:33] But it was so interesting, right?

[00:10:35] She helped us see that their sides are the same coin.

[00:10:40] See, it's so interesting.

[00:10:41] So this is why I thought, oh my gosh,

[00:10:43] having this conversation with you would be amazing

[00:10:45] because my take on that is so different.

[00:10:47] Okay.

[00:10:48] Because there's this, for a long time,

[00:10:50] I would say like, oh, I got this other,

[00:10:54] I'm leaving this thing to go towards this other thing

[00:10:58] and I'm gonna spin it.

[00:10:59] There's gonna be a spin in that thing

[00:11:03] and then that other thing.

[00:11:05] I'm gonna create essentially a marketing

[00:11:07] even though I'm not marketing,

[00:11:08] but like a message of an arc.

[00:11:14] And then she helps me realize later in the book,

[00:11:17] particularly around the men who aren't famous

[00:11:21] because they survived the Everest tragedy

[00:11:23] where many of their colleagues did not turn around.

[00:11:26] They did not quit.

[00:11:27] They did not follow choosing themselves

[00:11:30] and the boundaries that they had set.

[00:11:32] So they're still alive and they're not famous

[00:11:36] because they chose themselves.

[00:11:38] And I realized, oh, I don't need to make

[00:11:40] a marketing message or communication message

[00:11:43] for my pivots, for my quitting

[00:11:45] and trying something else, for my pilots

[00:11:49] failed or successful, because I run a business.

[00:11:50] My goodness, have I had a lot of failure, right?

[00:11:54] I just have to keep coming back to choosing myself

[00:11:57] or in my business, choosing the people I love enough

[00:12:01] to do all of the nonsense of business for,

[00:12:03] or choosing the type of parent that I wanna be.

[00:12:06] So I can keep quitting things and stay on an arc

[00:12:11] because I keep with grit and intention and humility

[00:12:16] and a lot of tears and even more bravery,

[00:12:19] choosing myself.

[00:12:19] Yes, well, I think you're also saying something

[00:12:23] she would probably nod her head to,

[00:12:24] which is defining what you mean by success.

[00:12:28] Yes.

[00:12:29] Right?

[00:12:30] Because the example of the Everest climbers

[00:12:32] is that some saw success as going all the way

[00:12:36] to the top and that grit and determination

[00:12:39] sometimes cost them their lives

[00:12:41] because they went all the way to the top.

[00:12:43] Where others saw success as returning to base camp alive.

[00:12:49] Yes.

[00:12:50] Which I probably would have been in that camp.

[00:12:51] Yes.

[00:12:52] But they defined success and failure differently.

[00:12:59] That's right.

[00:13:00] And I think that gives us great freedom

[00:13:04] to define the success of something.

[00:13:07] So maybe you can help me with this one.

[00:13:12] Had a little trouble when she would say,

[00:13:16] you stay longer than you should at something

[00:13:21] that you should quit before you get to that point.

[00:13:28] Man, that's an assessment to me.

[00:13:31] That's like saying,

[00:13:33] because at the same time she'll say that uncertainty,

[00:13:37] whenever we have to make a decision, there's uncertainty.

[00:13:40] And we never know 100%

[00:13:42] if it's gonna go one way or another.

[00:13:44] So how can you really know that you're staying too long?

[00:13:49] Yes.

[00:13:50] Oh my gosh.

[00:13:51] So dear listeners, I have read this book five times.

[00:13:58] So I'm diving in.

[00:14:00] I got the quote.

[00:14:01] Here we go.

[00:14:03] Again, in the prologue,

[00:14:04] because one of the masterful things that Annie Duke does

[00:14:08] is she tells you her theory.

[00:14:11] She tells you the way forward.

[00:14:14] And then she brings in personal stories, antidotes,

[00:14:18] and actual data research plus her personal story.

[00:14:22] So she tells you at the beginning

[00:14:23] and then she goes a little significantly deeper

[00:14:25] in each of the chapters.

[00:14:26] So at the very beginning,

[00:14:28] she's talking about how the scale is gaffed towards grit

[00:14:34] and the way we admire people who persist as heroes.

[00:14:38] In the book, she goes even to like Greek methodology

[00:14:41] and things like that.

[00:14:43] But then she says,

[00:14:44] but anyone who reads the book, grit, right?

[00:14:47] Which is all about sticking it out

[00:14:49] as suggesting that perseverance absent context

[00:14:55] is always a virtue is misinterpreting Angela Duckworth's

[00:14:59] the author's work.

[00:15:01] She would never say just stick with things

[00:15:04] and you'll succeed.

[00:15:06] And yet when we look at a lot of these ice bath bros,

[00:15:11] 4 a.m. bros, what is it?

[00:15:13] Just be consistent.

[00:15:14] Just be consistent.

[00:15:15] Just be consistent.

[00:15:17] And frequently that is you only know what you know.

[00:15:22] Right.

[00:15:22] And you only-

[00:15:23] In that moment.

[00:15:24] That's right.

[00:15:26] And so when it comes to sticking it out too long,

[00:15:30] first of all, I strongly feel

[00:15:32] that the more intersectional your identity is,

[00:15:34] the more that indoctrination has been given to you.

[00:15:38] So I hear this more from, for example,

[00:15:42] the person who helped me see this the most

[00:15:43] was a client of mine who is a black lesbian

[00:15:46] first generation American who was living in Germany.

[00:15:50] There was a lot of intersectional

[00:15:52] and just the intensity in which

[00:15:55] the indoctrination had taken place was wild to me.

[00:15:59] And since quote unquote, you don't belong,

[00:16:02] so you have to stay and be consistent.

[00:16:06] Right.

[00:16:07] Leads especially people,

[00:16:10] like for me, I'm a white woman.

[00:16:11] I was an immigrant for 13 years.

[00:16:12] I built my career in Germany.

[00:16:14] For me to keep looking at myself and questioning

[00:16:20] and then what can I do?

[00:16:21] I can persevere versus looking inside of myself

[00:16:25] and outside of myself and saying, you know what?

[00:16:27] Actually, this doesn't make any sense.

[00:16:31] This doesn't make any sense.

[00:16:33] For example, you've hired me

[00:16:34] because I'm an English native speaker

[00:16:36] because I have expertise in change management

[00:16:39] because I've worked globally,

[00:16:41] because, because, because, because,

[00:16:43] and then you won't listen to a thing I say.

[00:16:45] Thank you so much for this contract.

[00:16:48] Let's have a crucial conversation.

[00:16:50] Let's have another one.

[00:16:51] I really wish you all the best.

[00:16:53] Goodbye.

[00:16:56] But I had to learn to,

[00:16:58] and this is what I help some of my clients with

[00:17:00] as well, I have two clients right now

[00:17:01] who have just taken this great concept.

[00:17:04] They're both in startups to just an insane,

[00:17:06] I mean, just wildly extreme status

[00:17:13] on a scale of one to 10.

[00:17:16] Are you getting what you want?

[00:17:19] Do you belong here?

[00:17:20] Do you feel you belong here?

[00:17:22] Are you learning?

[00:17:23] Are you growing?

[00:17:24] Like we create, I have a standard metrics

[00:17:26] but we create it for them.

[00:17:29] And if it's below a seven on average,

[00:17:31] it's you gotta go.

[00:17:34] You gotta go.

[00:17:35] But where do most of us?

[00:17:38] Start choosing to leave?

[00:17:41] Research tells us it's in between two and three.

[00:17:45] Wow, that's really interesting.

[00:17:49] We choose it, we start seeing in around two and three

[00:17:52] but you're hearing.

[00:17:53] No, we start, so if 10 is like I'm getting everything.

[00:17:56] Oh, okay, the other direction.

[00:17:58] Right? I see.

[00:17:58] Seven is when it's like,

[00:17:59] oh, I don't actually belong here.

[00:18:01] Oh, I got passed over for a promotion.

[00:18:03] Oh, he doesn't text me back.

[00:18:06] Oh, I don't feel safe walking in my neighborhood

[00:18:09] for whatever reason.

[00:18:10] Oh, I whatever.

[00:18:13] I feel ignored when I'm out with my friends

[00:18:15] but when people actually, according to research,

[00:18:18] when women, excuse me,

[00:18:19] when women actually begin the process of quitting

[00:18:23] that which is hurting them,

[00:18:25] they're around a two or three.

[00:18:28] But where you need to leave to reduce your self harm,

[00:18:31] to increase your income,

[00:18:32] to increase your life satisfaction

[00:18:34] and honestly like longevity of life is something

[00:18:36] for a lot of women is around the seven, seven, eight.

[00:18:42] I think I was, I can see myself as a two or three.

[00:18:46] Yeah, me too.

[00:18:48] And you know, but the other thing that kind of got me

[00:18:51] is like she talks about calculating your expected value

[00:18:57] like right what, like you have a scale of one to seven

[00:19:04] but someone else could look at it.

[00:19:07] I think an example she gave in the book was

[00:19:10] how do you see yourself in one year in that position?

[00:19:15] Do you see yourself as happy or unhappy?

[00:19:18] And if you say with a hundred percent conviction

[00:19:21] that you're gonna be unhappy where you are

[00:19:23] a year from now, that is totally time to leave.

[00:19:27] But as I read that, I had these moments.

[00:19:32] I went back and looked at my own history.

[00:19:35] Like I had 11 jobs, I left four of them under

[00:19:42] I would say forced situations.

[00:19:47] Three of them were situations where there was change

[00:19:53] happening in the company like big change

[00:19:55] like changes in leadership, changes in...

[00:19:58] And I had to choose, do I stick it out

[00:20:04] or do I decide to leave?

[00:20:09] Right?

[00:20:10] Oh, can I, I wanna hear your story.

[00:20:13] Can I jump in here?

[00:20:14] This is where I think self-concept work

[00:20:15] is so important and where it became even more important

[00:20:18] for me reading her book

[00:20:19] which is because I was also taught that joy stay

[00:20:21] or joy leave.

[00:20:23] And I want us to think about this with grit

[00:20:25] and quitting on the same, right?

[00:20:28] Different sides of the coin.

[00:20:30] Who do I think I will become in one year when I stay here?

[00:20:35] Who do I think I will become in one year if I leave?

[00:20:39] Who do I think I will become

[00:20:41] if I don't make a decision at all?

[00:20:44] Cause I would have made some very different decisions

[00:20:50] if I had taken the moment to explore

[00:20:54] who do I think that I'll become

[00:20:55] when I'm working for a boss

[00:20:58] who was sexually harassing me consistently.

[00:21:03] So like, I just, but I,

[00:21:05] but that's one of the things that for me this book.

[00:21:08] That's amazing.

[00:21:09] That's a much stronger way I think to ask about that

[00:21:12] when you're looking at the expected value

[00:21:15] of what you're gonna get in a year from where you are.

[00:21:19] That's a really strong way of looking at that Nicole.

[00:21:21] That's terrific.

[00:21:22] But you and I were not taught that.

[00:21:23] So please continue your story

[00:21:25] cause I wanna hear this.

[00:21:26] Cause you had a...

[00:21:27] I think what also comes into account,

[00:21:31] which I didn't get from the book

[00:21:33] as much as I would have liked to

[00:21:34] is the situations in which you're in.

[00:21:40] My husband and I were taking our walk last night

[00:21:42] and I was telling him about the book

[00:21:43] and how we were gonna talk about it.

[00:21:46] And I said, three of the four positions I left,

[00:21:50] I netted out very well financially by staying

[00:21:56] just a little bit longer

[00:21:57] and going through the emotional hardship

[00:22:02] and the pain of being severed.

[00:22:08] Here's your con...

[00:22:09] Severance package.

[00:22:10] Yeah, right.

[00:22:11] And get my check and leave.

[00:22:15] And I know a lot of women who have been

[00:22:20] in that situation too,

[00:22:21] especially in leadership positions where you are,

[00:22:24] you realize the political climate has changed

[00:22:28] and you're no longer in a position of power

[00:22:33] and they want to get rid of you

[00:22:35] and you can leave on your own, no problem.

[00:22:39] But if you stay, they will sever you

[00:22:42] and give you a financial reward for that.

[00:22:47] And I think that's gotta play a role

[00:22:50] into that expected value of how much you're willing

[00:22:57] to give, it's like, how much are you gonna get

[00:23:03] potentially a year's salary, maybe sometimes more.

[00:23:12] The other big thing too is we stay longer

[00:23:15] for the safety and the consistent paycheck

[00:23:23] that we need sometimes to make our families happen.

[00:23:29] The risk is too great.

[00:23:31] And I don't know, do you think that's like...

[00:23:34] What do you think about that?

[00:23:36] That hit me because I didn't feel that in the book.

[00:23:38] Not everybody can just quit and move on in the moment.

[00:23:43] I don't know, maybe they can.

[00:23:46] So one of the things I love about the conversations

[00:23:49] that you have is that in the rare situation

[00:23:53] when one of your guests is black and white,

[00:23:55] it stands out.

[00:23:57] You have nuanced, mature conversation

[00:24:02] because we are all having unique experiences.

[00:24:05] I grew up very poor.

[00:24:07] My mom put up with a lot of stuff

[00:24:09] because she had to put food on our table.

[00:24:13] Should I really look down on someone for that?

[00:24:18] Absolutely not.

[00:24:21] This concept of black, white,

[00:24:25] if you're out of six, then you have to leave, sir.

[00:24:30] Because it's usually a sir, sir.

[00:24:33] I have bills to pay.

[00:24:35] I have two neurodiverse children.

[00:24:38] I have the desire to go to Thailand.

[00:24:41] So I'm gonna figure out how to do this with less stress,

[00:24:44] with less overwork and acknowledging,

[00:24:47] hey, I'm making a trade-off because it's all a trade-off.

[00:24:51] And that's what I think her book calls out.

[00:24:55] It's always a trade-off,

[00:24:58] which then brings us to Martin Luther King Jr.

[00:25:01] who was actually quoting,

[00:25:03] you know, we take the consequence of civil disobedience.

[00:25:10] Now, does that give the police,

[00:25:12] we see this now in the universities, right?

[00:25:14] Does that give the police or anyone else

[00:25:17] the quote unquote right to abuse,

[00:25:20] to use their sticks to harm, to shoot and no,

[00:25:24] absolutely not, right?

[00:25:25] And when we are practicing quitting or staying,

[00:25:30] when we are practicing policy creation,

[00:25:33] when we are practicing civil disobedience, whatever,

[00:25:36] we are making trade-offs.

[00:25:38] Yes.

[00:25:40] Maybe what you're helping us see too,

[00:25:43] is that when we have, when we're clear on why we're there

[00:25:52] and that trade-off of I'm willing to put up

[00:25:58] with this longer, I'm willing to do this

[00:26:02] until I can find something else,

[00:26:04] or I'm willing to see how this unfolds,

[00:26:08] you know, you have more knowledge,

[00:26:13] you have perhaps a bit more information

[00:26:17] that can help you decide what you do in that moment.

[00:26:23] Yeah.

[00:26:23] Right?

[00:26:24] And sometimes I just got to say though,

[00:26:28] I will be the first one to say,

[00:26:31] I had a brick thrown in the back of my head

[00:26:35] several times that it was like, yo, wake up.

[00:26:40] You are not listening to all the other signs

[00:26:45] I have been given.

[00:26:46] Like, it was like, nope, you didn't listen to that one.

[00:26:49] You didn't listen to this one.

[00:26:50] You didn't, oh, finally, yo, finally, you see it.

[00:26:56] But it's almost like that commitment.

[00:27:01] She calls it, what does she call it?

[00:27:02] She calls it escalating commitment.

[00:27:05] Yes.

[00:27:08] Escalation of commitment, right?

[00:27:11] Is what she calls it.

[00:27:12] And I mean, I have been there.

[00:27:13] I can totally see that I even dug in deeper.

[00:27:19] Someone said to me years and years,

[00:27:21] because I did the same thing.

[00:27:22] And I felt like I got pierced through the heart.

[00:27:26] I felt like I was standing,

[00:27:29] looking at an old castle up on the hill

[00:27:33] that I wanted to achieve.

[00:27:34] And I was working so hard to get to.

[00:27:37] And some person came out with a long bone

[00:27:41] and was like, got me through the heart.

[00:27:45] So I feel that as well.

[00:27:47] And someone told me because of a specific situation,

[00:27:55] first they'll call to you your inner voice,

[00:28:02] the signs, the universe, God, whatever.

[00:28:05] We'll call to you from outside, hey.

[00:28:08] And then we'll tap on your door and then ring your bell

[00:28:12] and then pound on your door

[00:28:14] and then send missiles through the door.

[00:28:18] And if you still hide somewhere else within your house,

[00:28:23] your heart, we'll set that thing on fire,

[00:28:26] but you will not be staying here.

[00:28:33] It's so true.

[00:28:35] I hope our listeners can relate to that

[00:28:37] because oh my gosh, I certainly can.

[00:28:40] And I think I would definitely say

[00:28:45] every time I moved on to the next thing,

[00:28:52] it was so much better than where I had been.

[00:28:56] The fear that comes up,

[00:28:58] that emotion of fear of the unknown

[00:29:01] is I think what paralyzes us a lot.

[00:29:03] And she talks a lot about that too in the book.

[00:29:05] I think we go into new jobs thinking like,

[00:29:09] oh, this is gonna be the best, right?

[00:29:12] We're on pink clouds.

[00:29:14] Yes.

[00:29:15] And then stuff happens.

[00:29:18] One of my clients just gave me a phrase recently

[00:29:21] and I know that I'll be doing a lot of things around

[00:29:24] but this is the first time I'm saying it publicly.

[00:29:27] She was describing her growth plan

[00:29:30] in this new role that she has.

[00:29:32] And she said, yeah, my at the moment manager said,

[00:29:34] and I was like, well, one moment please.

[00:29:38] Can we repeat that?

[00:29:39] Where's that coming from?

[00:29:41] And she had gone through,

[00:29:43] I'm pretty sure she had either listened to part

[00:29:45] of this book or listened to a podcast episode

[00:29:48] with Annie Duke or just was familiar with it anyways

[00:29:51] as someone who's deep in data and things like that,

[00:29:55] which is this idea

[00:30:01] that there's a study where,

[00:30:02] and it's on page 91 for anyone following along.

[00:30:06] It's called the sunk cost problem.

[00:30:08] So we have the sunk cost fallacy,

[00:30:10] but this is a problem.

[00:30:11] This is like a slightly different thing.

[00:30:14] And it's actually from 1979 in case anyone's like,

[00:30:16] how, why did I not learn about this

[00:30:19] in elementary school?

[00:30:20] Cause that's where I sat with that.

[00:30:22] But essentially you have a gambling thing

[00:30:25] and you're flipping a coin.

[00:30:26] So generally speaking, it's about a 50-50, right?

[00:30:29] They could win a hundred or they could lose 120.

[00:30:34] And then breaks down how the majority made decisions,

[00:30:39] what information's influenced them.

[00:30:43] And do I flip again, but I lose this pretend money

[00:30:48] or do I win and gain less pretend money?

[00:30:53] And when does it switch?

[00:30:56] If the pretend win money is higher

[00:30:58] than the pretend lose money,

[00:31:00] how does the behavior and the decision-making shift?

[00:31:03] And it is astounding.

[00:31:07] I still, I tried to do it with my kids,

[00:31:09] but they didn't play along.

[00:31:10] It's fine.

[00:31:11] I'm raising them to be strong, independent,

[00:31:13] and kids, humans.

[00:31:14] So it's fine.

[00:31:17] They should be strong and independent

[00:31:18] with everyone but me, right?

[00:31:19] It's just amazing how tiny little shifts

[00:31:26] and how people talk to us,

[00:31:27] how we talk to ourselves, how we label things,

[00:31:30] how we engage, what the number is, et cetera,

[00:31:34] can shift how we behave

[00:31:36] because my at-the-moment manager is supporting me.

[00:31:43] But that manager may leave

[00:31:45] or that manager just may get new information

[00:31:48] and is a different at-the-moment manager

[00:31:51] than they were six months ago.

[00:31:53] Gosh, it's brilliant, isn't it?

[00:31:55] That's just brilliant to see it that way.

[00:31:58] Amazing, the clients are amazing.

[00:32:00] And she tried to claim that I came up with that.

[00:32:02] Dear listeners, not true.

[00:32:08] That is really a great way to look at it

[00:32:10] because that just tells you constantly too

[00:32:13] that the future is uncertain and you can't control it

[00:32:17] and you don't know where it's gonna go.

[00:32:19] So go with the flow.

[00:32:22] Thank you for listening today

[00:32:23] and we sure hope you enjoyed this episode.

[00:32:25] If you did, would you please leave a comment

[00:32:29] wherever you listen to your podcast?

[00:32:32] Tell a friend about us,

[00:32:34] join our public Facebook group, Girl Take the Lead

[00:32:37] or visit our website, girltaketheliedpod.com.

[00:32:42] We also have a YouTube channel

[00:32:44] where your subscription would be appreciated.

[00:32:47] Once you're on YouTube, search at Girl Take the Lead.

[00:32:51] And we've joined YouTube Music

[00:32:53] where you can see the video version of this episode.

[00:33:01] Here are the three takeaways from this series one.

[00:33:06] In our culture, we seek grit as a virtue

[00:33:10] and quit as a vice.

[00:33:12] Per Annie Duke, success does not lie in sticking to things.

[00:33:18] It lies in picking the right thing to stick to

[00:33:22] and quitting the rest.

[00:33:24] Two, any decision is made under some degree of uncertainty.

[00:33:31] We don't have a crystal ball

[00:33:34] and new information will always reveal itself.

[00:33:38] And three, external validation increases

[00:33:43] the escalation of commitment.

[00:33:46] Fear of how others will view us,

[00:33:50] if we quit something is usually overblown.

[00:33:56] Our next episode will conclude our conversation

[00:33:58] with Nicole and where we'll cover goals

[00:34:02] and expected outcomes, stressing less

[00:34:06] and avoiding the Sunday scary.

[00:34:09] A quit coach and four steps

[00:34:11] to quit conversations with them, kill criteria,

[00:34:16] to cut your losses, attachment to our own self identity

[00:34:22] and where we might be in love with our own self importance.

[00:34:27] Battles worth having.

[00:34:30] And we'll end the episode with the famous aunt story.

[00:34:36] So make sure to listen to part two,

[00:34:38] it's all juicy stuff.

[00:34:40] And please join us again.

[00:34:43] We all have things we have to quit or leave

[00:34:46] and it can be so difficult.

[00:34:49] And we hope our conversation helps you along

[00:34:52] in some of those decisions.

[00:34:54] Thanks for being here and talk to you soon, bye.