159 Cultural Integration, Emotions and Ego: Irene Sim's Perspective on Leadership

[00:00:00] Episode 159 of Girl, Take the Lead where each week we explore womanhood and leadership.

[00:00:12] And I'm your host, Yolanda Canny. Irene Sim joins us to discuss some topics I think you'll

[00:00:19] find interesting like the power of emotions, new thinking habits, systemic bias and racism

[00:00:27] emotions and ego. Such good, good stuff. Irene is the managing director of Coaching Alliance Group,

[00:00:37] an accredited executive leadership coach, mentor and facilitator. Her career is amazing.

[00:00:45] She was the inaugural chief of staff at APAC and first Asian woman to be promoted to the senior

[00:00:52] executive service of the Australian Treasury and the Australian Taxation Office.

[00:00:59] And she was the first Asian woman that the Australian Treasury posted overseas diplomatically

[00:01:07] as the minister counselor to China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. Enjoy the listen. Here you go.

[00:01:17] So welcome Irene to Girl, Take the Lead. We are so excited to have you with us. And you've

[00:01:23] come so far to join us. So thank you for being here. And thank you for having me.

[00:01:33] And I am excited to be here loving this technology that allows us to connect from,

[00:01:39] you know, so far as you say. Yeah, because you're coming into us from Australia, everybody.

[00:01:45] And we've had a few guests come from Australia. And I think the hardest and most

[00:01:50] challenging thing is just getting our time zones right. But with us changing time,

[00:01:55] you changing time. It's just like, where are we again? But why don't we start if you would

[00:02:02] please introduce yourself to the listeners so that they learn about you. Hello listeners.

[00:02:08] I am Irene Sim, an Australian living in Canberra, Australia. Where is that? That's

[00:02:14] the capital of Australia. But it's a very small town, really. And it's called the bush capital.

[00:02:21] I'm an immigrant to Australia originally from another small town, this time in Ipoh,

[00:02:30] a town called Ipoh in Malaysia. I'm the eldest daughter of a single mother in Malaysia.

[00:02:37] And I grew up as that. And you can imagine the challenges that I faced and my family

[00:02:45] faced at that time, because single mothers were not a thing. So you can imagine there were,

[00:02:52] yeah, anyway, lots of opportunities to learn from my perspective. Ethnically Chinese,

[00:02:59] a member of a minority race in Malaysia where I grew up and in Australia where I am.

[00:03:06] What else? I'm a wife. I'm a mother. I have two-

[00:03:10] And coach, right? You've been coaching.

[00:03:12] And coach. I have two daughters. Yes. Yeah. So I'm introducing the background to this

[00:03:19] because it is central to the fact that I've had this amazing career. I'll leave people

[00:03:27] to have a look at my LinkedIn profile if you want to find out more of the career that

[00:03:31] has exceeded my expectations. And today I'm a coach at one point where I look back and

[00:03:39] thought that I have a lot more to give and I have a particular story to share. And so

[00:03:48] to give back really in what you call it, to honor the people who have supported me

[00:04:01] along the way. Yeah. Well, definitely you have so much to offer your expertise and your

[00:04:08] just who you're being. And I know we share a common passion around emotions

[00:04:14] and our listeners love learning about emotions. I know you had some interesting things to say

[00:04:21] about that. What are your thoughts about how emotions play a role in our leadership?

[00:04:27] Emotions play a central role in our leadership. The fundamental point about emotions, I think

[00:04:35] your listeners, you've been talking to your listeners about emotions. I mean, the fundamental

[00:04:41] point is that emotions are neither good nor bad. You know how we talk about emotions as

[00:04:45] positive or negative implication being that negative is bad, positive is good. On the

[00:04:52] contrary, I look at emotions as being comfortable or uncomfortable, but whether they are comfortable

[00:04:58] or uncomfortable, they are important signals from us to ourselves to guide us to our North Star,

[00:05:09] to guide us to our values and the kind of leader we want to be.

[00:05:14] Mm-hmm. So it's kind of input, input that we can see about ourselves, right?

[00:05:20] Yes. Yeah. So the tendency to avoid acknowledging our emotions means we are operating without

[00:05:30] that important intelligence. Yeah. Right. And I guess that helps us be more resilient

[00:05:36] when we're able to look at those emotions, accept them and then keep moving on from them. Like

[00:05:45] almost let them pass, understand them more. I would take it further. I would say accept them

[00:05:56] and allow them, but then do something with them.

[00:06:03] So, and the role and when we that process of accepting is important because we have a tendency,

[00:06:13] myself included, to be annoyed at ourselves for being upset or to

[00:06:23] be uncomfortable or to, I'll use the word scold myself for feeling this way, telling myself I

[00:06:32] shouldn't feel like that and telling myself to suppress those things. When I say instead of

[00:06:40] doing that, leaning into that and just accept and honor that that's what our

[00:06:47] intelligence system is telling us. But instead of just letting them pass,

[00:06:53] look at what it is that our emotions are saying to us about usually when our emotions are

[00:06:59] uncomfortable, they're trying to convey to us about something that is important to us,

[00:07:07] something that we need that our needs are not being met. Right. Yeah. So we can lean into that,

[00:07:14] interpret those emotions and then make conscious choices about what we need to do

[00:07:21] to get our needs met say or to act in accordance with our deepest values, for example.

[00:07:29] Right. So if we pull, if we kind of pull a thread at some of those emotions and we start looking at

[00:07:36] thoughts that might be underneath that, right? And beliefs, what are some of the,

[00:07:44] when you're coaching, what are some of the ways you help your clients shift those?

[00:07:50] So that's connected to having uncomfortable emotions and the first step is to acknowledge

[00:07:59] the emotions, right? And then to unpack that and see what are the thoughts that I'm holding

[00:08:07] that are underpinning the emotions. Right. So that's the first step.

[00:08:13] And then to acknowledge the emotions and then to unpack that and see what are the thoughts

[00:08:16] that I'm holding that are underpinning these emotions. So for example,

[00:08:25] something like someone gives me feedback on a piece of work that I've put so much effort into

[00:08:33] and they give me critical feedback about it. The habitual, and these are patterns by the way,

[00:08:42] so the habitual thought might be to be defensive about it and say,

[00:08:47] do you even know what you're talking about? Oh God, are you criticizing me? You know,

[00:08:51] aversion to some of those thoughts. And why are you picking on me? Don't you know

[00:08:55] I worked hard on this? I've had those thoughts a few times.

[00:09:03] Of course that those thoughts are in sync with our feelings of upset, embarrassment,

[00:09:10] shame, you know, defensiveness, discomfort. Yeah. Right. And so the first step to being

[00:09:23] adept at tapping into your emotions for the intel is to acknowledge all these things and

[00:09:28] to unearth all these things. What's making me uncomfortable? What are the thoughts? What

[00:09:32] are the assumptions I am making about either myself or the other person?

[00:09:38] Or by the way, I probably also add into that the thought that, oh my God, I'm not good enough.

[00:09:48] You know, I've worked so hard and it's still not good enough. So maybe I'm not good enough.

[00:09:53] Right. That's that personal taking it very personally.

[00:09:58] Yeah. So I then coach my clients to acknowledge all that and then to reframe,

[00:10:08] to reframe those thoughts. And so a reframe in that example might be number one,

[00:10:18] this is not about me. Definitely not about my worthiness because my worthiness is never

[00:10:26] in question. Point number one, always in any reframe in a situation like that.

[00:10:33] And then another reframe might be what is the issue that the other person is referring to?

[00:10:42] What is the issue? So separate the person that is me from the issue. What is the issue?

[00:10:51] What is the person, what needs to be improved? What are they seeing that I am not?

[00:10:59] No. Or I would also add, what are you seeing that they are not?

[00:11:06] And then what am I seeing that they are not?

[00:11:09] Right. Right.

[00:11:11] But you notice the tone of these reframe thoughts. They are not about,

[00:11:17] I should be ashamed. I'm not good enough or they are being picky. They are being mean or

[00:11:24] all sorts of, you know. So it's not about personalizing it to them or to me.

[00:11:31] It's about focusing on the issue. What needs to be better? I'm seeing X.

[00:11:35] What are you seeing? Yeah.

[00:11:36] You know why? Tell me about the why.

[00:11:41] Yeah. Because I think sometimes we can miss the bigger picture when we're just focused on

[00:11:49] one big part, one part of it and miss that, you know, like I used to tell my daughter when she was

[00:11:55] a goalkeeper for the soccer team. Listen, the ball got beyond all these other people before

[00:12:02] it came to you as the goalie, you know? And that sometimes is how we see it, that it's our

[00:12:09] fault. But we don't realize, well, there was all of these other people on the field,

[00:12:15] on the team that also had a part in whatever is going on. Anyway, I think that's really great

[00:12:23] advice. Yeah. So again, in that example with your daughter, it just reflects and I say the

[00:12:32] inclination and it's something to do with women and you know how we were socialized when it's

[00:12:40] always about, it's our fault because we bear this responsibility to take care of everyone

[00:12:47] and to be the person to fix all the problems. Right? We forget that there's a scene.

[00:12:56] Oh boy. Well, I know another one of your big passions is especially given your diverse

[00:13:04] background is bringing cultures together. And I think that you have perhaps a particular lens

[00:13:13] on cultural bias and how we might work with that more and make it less of an issue because

[00:13:26] it's a big issue for many cultures beyond, you know, Australia and the U.S. I mean,

[00:13:32] we're talking about the world. Yeah. So my work is supporting women, but on top of that, I also

[00:13:44] coach organizations and to learn how to connect across different cultures. Right? And

[00:13:54] fundamentally, the reason we are even talking about this is because of the human condition.

[00:14:01] Which is, I'll make a general statement, which is that you and I, I'll assume that and you

[00:14:08] tell me whether you're right or whether I'm right or wrong. We typically, we are typically

[00:14:14] conditioned to see the world through our own lens. And speaking for myself, my lens is a

[00:14:24] gender lens. And of course, my lens incorporates my culture. You know, I talked, you know,

[00:14:31] the way I introduce myself, right? My Chinese-ness and my state as an immigrant

[00:14:39] is central to my lens. Right? And we look at the world through our own lens and we assume

[00:14:48] that others either share that lens or if they don't, they ought to. They ought to share that lens.

[00:15:02] I guess so. I definitely, I think it's,

[00:15:06] we are not attuned to our lens too much. You know, we think maybe because you're all

[00:15:14] Australians or we're all Americans or that we have some kind of shared background. And to

[00:15:22] some extent, we probably do, but there's a heck of a lot of diversity in that lens that

[00:15:31] we cannot see. And it's almost like it's invisible to us. And unless, like you're saying,

[00:15:40] we become intentional about it, it's just so invisible though, how sometimes we can

[00:15:47] relate to each other. So do you help people like observe it more? Is that kind of what you try

[00:15:52] and do? Yes. Yes. So we have a lot of diversity in, as you say, and I've come to

[00:16:03] experience more and more that the people who bring a lot of richness of their lives,

[00:16:08] no matter what it is, whether it's race or gender or anything else, right? If they are free to bring

[00:16:15] that richness of their experience to the workplace or to teams that they work with

[00:16:20] or any project, then that enriches the project because then we get really the power of diverse

[00:16:31] ways of thinking and perspectives into solving problems. The reality is that talking about

[00:16:41] Australia, but not just in Australia, in the Asia Pacific, so I've worked in different parts of there

[00:16:47] as well, every dominant culture thinks that that's the way to think about the world.

[00:16:53] And so what I work with people to do is to become more, to educate themselves about their

[00:17:03] own culture and looking out for differences in other people's culture for the sake of building

[00:17:14] a bridge. I love it. And is it sometimes through their

[00:17:24] DEI efforts, the diversity equity and inclusion efforts or is it kind of a separate thing

[00:17:30] sometimes? So organizations here, I work a lot with the Australian public service

[00:17:38] and so each organization tends to have its own diversity and inclusion initiatives.

[00:17:48] But I work with leaders really instead of through the diversity and inclusion.

[00:17:57] I think it's really important that diversity and inclusion or having an inclusive mindset,

[00:18:04] for example, is the job of everyone, the leader to set the tone and for everyone

[00:18:13] to also start to engage in inclusive ways. And so to adopt an inclusive mindset

[00:18:24] and an inclusive mindset I mean something like being curious. So number one, moving away from

[00:18:32] the assumption that the way I see the world is the only way to see the world, right? To pause

[00:18:40] that because it's a bit of a you know we're conditioned so that conditioning is a long,

[00:18:46] you know we've been conditioned for a long time to think like that. So to pause and say

[00:18:53] tell me more what do you mean? You know so the curiosity to inculcate habits of curiosity

[00:19:02] and also to be non-judgmental. Yeah well that creates the safe space right? I mean if

[00:19:10] it begins from the top down then everybody knows it's sincere and it's authentic and

[00:19:16] I think it's great that you're doing that work with the leaders to help them create that

[00:19:21] space so people can be in it and know that yeah it's okay when you know I think I mentioned

[00:19:28] to you that when I was coming through the ranks it wasn't okay to say that you were Mexican

[00:19:32] you know and you had to try and assimilate but now they don't need to assimilate.

[00:19:39] I think it's just so much better like you're saying we get the creativity,

[00:19:43] we get the best from the people performing in their teams.

[00:19:50] But this bridge building is important. So actually talking about assimilation and

[00:19:58] you were saying about your experience in my experience as well coming through the ranks

[00:20:03] I didn't used to say I'm an immigrant. I did not used to say I'm from Malaysia and

[00:20:11] you know and all of that that was like in a separate compartment that not to be talked about.

[00:20:16] Right. I've come to talk about it more and more because I've come to realize that actually

[00:20:24] as I was journeying through many people were looking to me because I was the first woman you

[00:20:30] know to be promoted to the executive in my organization and to get a diplomatic posting

[00:20:35] etc etc and I didn't realize it then but that my appointment gave people from other

[00:20:46] marginalized groups or you know minority groups hope

[00:20:52] and I've only come to know that more and more as I've done this work coaching

[00:20:58] coaching the younger leaders right so there are many people who say to me oh yeah I remember

[00:21:05] you, you were the first blah blah blah and I'm thinking you know I didn't even think about it

[00:21:12] like that then right not too much in you know I was busy you know trying to maybe there was

[00:21:21] a point in my career was when I was busy trying to assimilate. Yeah I think it was part of the

[00:21:28] time I mean really it wasn't good to be different the way it is now where you know

[00:21:36] you've got efforts you know that give you a safe space to talk together and to talk about common

[00:21:44] issues that could be you're having that someone else is having and looking at

[00:21:50] establishing mentors and people to help you through the organization.

[00:21:56] Right.

[00:21:58] Yes and from an organizational point of view actually as a leader your job is to bring up

[00:22:06] the best in everyone right so you to get the best if we talk about it in economic terms

[00:22:13] the best value for money from all all your team members not just the ones that are like

[00:22:21] you. Right right that bias oh I really like that person I wonder why oh they're so much like me

[00:22:33] yes yes so that's our conditioning yeah yeah yeah it takes deliberate effort as you say

[00:22:42] and I guess you know when we look at

[00:22:44] that understanding I think we talked a little bit about our emotions and our ego

[00:22:53] and you know getting better habits you like I think that's your you are laying a lot

[00:23:00] you know the better habits and so we can get better habits at diversity and inclusion and

[00:23:08] better habits because I would think those emotions come up as a result of some space

[00:23:14] and environment that we're in and if we're safe or if we're not safe and if we're fearful or not

[00:23:26] so there's a particular emotion well we can call it an emotional habit there's a

[00:23:33] or rather there's a particular there are particular habitual thoughts

[00:23:37] that bring about the uncomfortable emotions right that that I think we need to put a spotlight on

[00:23:44] whether you are part of a dominant group a majority group you know like you know like

[00:23:50] the powers that be highly assimilated it applies to that person it also applies

[00:23:56] to the person who doesn't fit in right the habitual thought that says anything the thing

[00:24:03] that's happening around me is about me you know so if they don't like what I've done in my example

[00:24:10] if they don't like what I've done it's because they are taking on me giving me a hard time

[00:24:17] being unfair being biased right or the other way around if you are the one who is privileged

[00:24:28] you know you belong to the majority group or you have other privileges the tendency to say well

[00:24:35] you are different miss you you are strange you you need to go learn more or something

[00:24:42] you know making it about the person yes yes you're wrong you're you are the problem

[00:24:48] you are yeah and I'd like well the most important thing I think we can do

[00:24:56] is to get away from the habit of personalizing it and I'm not saying that everybody is really good

[00:25:04] and nobody is being biased and all that I am not saying that at all what I am saying is that

[00:25:09] your bias is not my problem right so I'm not going to take the emotional load of your

[00:25:17] whatever it is or personalizing it to me and everything to become all upset and defensive and

[00:25:24] sad and embarrassed and ashamed and all that sort of thing right so I think the habit to make it

[00:25:31] about ourselves or the other person that's something to practice reframing yeah to

[00:25:40] then instead say what is the issue what needs to be better how can I serve better what is

[00:25:48] after what's the long-term goal here what's the bigger picture yeah so make it about the issue

[00:25:57] so that's a habit that if I were to choose one habit it would be that habit yeah so the one

[00:26:05] habit would be to break up that it's all about me yep it's all about people it's all about me

[00:26:13] all of them and the and the disconnection because the minute we make it them and us

[00:26:21] we're disconnected from each other yes yes I love the way you put that absolutely

[00:26:28] so when we don't make it about us or them uh you and I we are looking at an issue connected

[00:26:36] together yeah you know we're standing on the same side if you like same side of together

[00:26:42] looking at the issue not blaming each other judging each other defending against each other

[00:26:50] and all that yeah that's very cool very cool I like that a lot I think that

[00:26:58] that allows for you know you to align with another person to to um almost well be as you

[00:27:07] said curious together about how to find new solutions or look at this a different way

[00:27:17] yeah and address a breakdown yes or even if in in the end we conclude that there is no

[00:27:26] different way it's either what you're suggesting or what I'm suggesting let's say but by giving it

[00:27:34] the uh making the effort to look at the issue in a connected way like that then both of us

[00:27:42] will move away from that regardless of the outcome feeling heard feeling respected

[00:27:51] well I Irene I think that's even good for any kind of relationship yes yes marriages could be

[00:27:57] a lot better if that was happening all right that's another story

[00:28:03] yeah all human relations I mean I'm looking at the world at the moment and you know feeling

[00:28:10] quite a bit of despair about all sorts of things but it's this tendency right that worries

[00:28:16] me about bling and othering looking for differences rather than looking for commonalities

[00:28:25] and then um yeah and again personalizing it you know so that we are in defense attack mode

[00:28:31] yeah really would like you know as I said the one habit to break is the habit to make it about

[00:28:38] ourselves or the other yeah well that's pretty good advice but do you have any other advice for

[00:28:48] young millennials and Gen Zers as they're moving along in their lives

[00:28:54] yeah I do um I thought about this by uh reflecting on what I wish I knew a lot earlier

[00:29:06] in my life you know I come to you with all this I talked about challenges and everything

[00:29:12] um and uh I wish I knew that setbacks and failures are guaranteed

[00:29:20] um your goal is to make a positive difference in the world

[00:29:25] I came into you know into into my career uh wanting to make a positive difference in

[00:29:33] in the world right I wish I knew though that these are like like learning how to ride a bike

[00:29:39] you've got to fall you've got to fail and then most importantly you've got to get up

[00:29:47] get up try again and learn from that and do tweak what you're doing to to actually get the

[00:29:55] bike you know to actually be successful in your bike riding yeah so that's what I wish I knew

[00:30:02] because I I I reckon I you know I went through a lot of angst angst because because

[00:30:10] I didn't know that earlier um and also I would like to say to my younger self or the

[00:30:18] millennials of today that um to own to own the fact that you don't know everything

[00:30:27] because you don't and guess what you're unlikely to and nobody does

[00:30:34] so that's true though it's so much of us no and and and that and and I'll also take it further

[00:30:43] and say if you if you think you know everything that's downright dangerous

[00:30:52] because if I if I look at that mentality in the context of leadership or in the context

[00:30:59] in the context of growing up or in the context of just getting better

[00:31:05] thinking that you know everything or have to know everything just makes you fearful and insecure

[00:31:11] you're constantly worrying about being toppled from your pedestal in your mind

[00:31:16] and you imagine you know can you imagine being led by someone like that

[00:31:21] well I think you're always pretending too like that's the other thing like

[00:31:25] you know that you're pretending to know it all and it's so much better to say I don't know

[00:31:33] yes and the power the power comes in saying oh yeah I don't know everything

[00:31:40] but I want to learn yes so that is the x factor you know being prepared to lean in to learn

[00:31:48] and back to that curiosity mindset I talked about yes yeah that is spring yeah that's pure

[00:31:56] strength yep and inclusion and all of those things well I'm feeling very hopeful right now

[00:32:06] me too yo is there anything else that you'd like to tell our listeners before we end our episode

[00:32:13] yeah so my big passion in as a leadership coach is to coach women and others who

[00:32:23] feel that they're not able to bring their whole selves to work to talk to me because my

[00:32:31] focus is on helping people to be leaders on their own terms right so connect with me

[00:32:39] I'm on LinkedIn Irene Sim executive leadership coach yeah connect with me tell me your story

[00:32:47] and if I can support you that's great if not I'll cheer you on

[00:32:53] this conversation has been energizing to me I love hearing from others who have found ways

[00:33:00] to also be their own their own best champions yeah oh it's so good Irene and we'll have all

[00:33:10] of that in the show notes for our listeners in case they want to follow you and get in touch

[00:33:15] and you know just get to know you more I just so appreciate your energy and your light

[00:33:22] I mean it's like for those of you that aren't watching the video right now I wish you could

[00:33:26] see her she's just so lit and you can just tell she's just full of positive energy for all of us

[00:33:33] so thank you Irene for joining us today thank you yo and you've inspired me today too so when

[00:33:40] I talk to someone like you it gives me optimism you know I am optimistic about the world

[00:33:46] let's get more people like us

[00:33:48] all right thank you again all right thanks thank you for listening today we sure hope you enjoyed

[00:34:00] this episode if you did please leave us a comment wherever you listen to your podcast

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[00:34:18] appreciated once you're on YouTube search at girl take the lead and we've recently expanded into

[00:34:25] YouTube music where you can find a video of this episode. Here are the three takeaways from this

[00:34:32] episode one let's look at emotions as being comfortable or uncomfortable not good or bad

[00:34:41] they can be our north star guiding us to act in alignment with our deepest values

[00:34:47] and to be more resilient accept them allow them and then do something constructive with them

[00:34:56] two having an inclusive mindset is about being curious and moving away from the assumption

[00:35:04] of the way we see the world is the only way to see the world three one habit is to break

[00:35:13] up the all about me and the disconnection from the other we can look at an issue together rather

[00:35:21] than making it personal by blaming judging or defending against the other this allows alignment

[00:35:30] our next episode will be a sound bite building on this topic of emotions and ego

[00:35:36] the psychology undergrad was way too interested in the topic and I found some great resources

[00:35:43] that I think you'll find interesting too please join us again and thanks for being here talk to

[00:35:51] you soon bye