145. Part 1: Navigating Relationships with Candor and Trust - Insights from Peter Yaholkovsky and Sue Staker

[00:00:00] Welcome to Episode 145, which is part 1 of a two-part series of Girl, Take the Lead, where each week we explore womanhood and leadership. And I'm your host, Yolanda Canny. In our series today, Peter Yaholkovsky and his partner in life, Sue Staker, join us to

[00:00:28] discuss Peter's book, Listening for Candor, Building Trust in Relationships that Matter. This book illuminates a path for trust conversations by starting with the shared sense of what matters. Peter has an extensive background in the linguistic foundations of trust and communication, having

[00:00:50] studied and worked with Dr. Fernando Flores since the 1980s and being certified by the Strozzi Institute as a master somatic coach. Over the past three decades, Peter has coached families and executive teams in building and restoring trust. And Sue has done executive

[00:01:10] coaching for some plus 20 years. In addition to being life partners, Peter and Sue work together as part of the Williams Group to bring trust-building skills to wealthy families. I've known Peter and Sue for about 20 years and so grateful to have them as guests

[00:01:31] today. In this part one, we'll cover what is candor and how can it build trust with others? What is the role of emotionality and intention in relationships? How trust differs in personal and professional settings? And what elements need to be present to save a relationship

[00:01:57] and when is it time to let go? Enjoy the listen. Here you go. So welcome, my friends. It's so delightful when I have friends who come on the show and we can talk

[00:02:11] about this book that has been done. It's just an amazing book and I'm so excited to tell our listeners about it. So without further ado, would you introduce yourselves to the listeners

[00:02:26] for us and maybe Peter you go first. Okay. So I'm Peter Jaholkovski and Sue and I actually worked for many years together working with ultra high net worth families who have relationship slash trust breakdowns. And rather than try to solve their problems, which we can't do,

[00:02:57] what we do is teach them how to solve their own problems by being able to have the conversations that are otherwise out of reach for them. And as a result of doing that, I've been at it

[00:03:13] for 25 years. Some eight or 10 years ago, I began to try to articulate what it is that we found was a reasonable path for people to be able to become familiar with and that would help them so

[00:03:36] they could solve their own problems. And then, you know, many drafts, many edits, many God knows what over the years. And so the book was finally released on you just before Christmas. So great. Congratulations. And the title is listening for candor. And now most people

[00:04:03] think of candor as the beginning of an argument. And what I'm looking at a different meaning for candor, when I write it that way, I'm looking for what really matters to you. If we can listen

[00:04:22] for that and articulate that and get aligned on that what really matters. Now we have the foundation for a good conversation, as opposed to simply arguing about opinions. So that's the main

[00:04:37] title of the book is listening for candor. And then I remember I had this wife of mine who was around with me in this work for some 10 years. And and then this is Sue, Sue got six some years

[00:04:56] ago, and so hasn't been actually active in it for some time, but can never be separate from it anyway. Yeah. So that sounds like a good note to jump in on. Absolutely. And I can't resist. So

[00:05:13] actually, I was thinking about it this morning, knowing that we were going to speak to you. And I started doing the math in my head. So Peter, we are approaching 30 years of working

[00:05:26] 30 years. Yeah, which is astonishing. So yeah, I've had the most of the time, the fun of working in this field that's in Peter's book with him for a very long time. And I like to think of it

[00:05:46] that our goal is to work ourselves out of a job, which I know can sound trite. But it truly is that when we walk away, that we know that people now have some new competencies, some new skills for

[00:06:05] how they're going to be in relationship with each other and and produce different outcomes in their lives than they were producing before. I love the very first sentence of the preface of Peter's book, which is relationships matter. Yeah. And I think one of the things for our listeners

[00:06:30] to know is that your book isn't just about personal. You also talk about professional relationships and you talk about teams and things to look at. So and you do such a great job

[00:06:44] of like making that very clear in the book on how to approach those. So kudos to you guys for helping us navigate those waters too. Yeah, because we'll notice that the range of what matters in a business relationship is actually subtly but very distinctly different than what matters

[00:07:12] in a family relationship. Not least because the time, the temporal frame of a commitment made in business is kind of well by when do we fulfill this mission, this strategic objective,

[00:07:32] this project, there's a by when on it. And it and it mostly has to do with fulfill this by then. And a little bit on the surrounding areas and don't make a mess in other places too much as

[00:07:47] you get it done. But now that's a very different horizon of concern than a child who you care about way out years with no clear end and who is liable to get connected to someone else. And now you care

[00:08:13] about them. Oh, wait a second. What about potential children? Oh, what about if they get sick or get in an accident? You already are committed to care so that horizon is so much broader, deeper, undefined. It's a different relationship space. Now these are just two ends of

[00:08:32] the spectrum. Obviously there's more. But navigating that we can't get them confused. We need to sort it out. And we need to get it quite and is a huge benefit to doing so. After all, we have friends

[00:08:48] and we hardly ever define what does it mean to be a friend? Well, I think also too when we spoke earlier, I think Sue, you brought up the idea that they overlap. And that sometimes we can get into

[00:09:01] trouble. Right? Because can you talk a little bit about that? I just need a couple more bars about remind me a little bit more like I think we were talking about trust. And sometimes when

[00:09:17] we're in a professional relationship, we think it's more of a personal one. And maybe there's an overlap sometimes even though because we're on a you can have personal relationships that are professional. So I can be a little confusing, I think.

[00:09:36] And even having conversations like that, even having conversations about what is our relationship? What do we want it to be? And what matters here? Like what matters to you? And what matters to me? What are we up to together? That's a useful and beautiful conversation.

[00:10:00] Whether we're talking about myself in the CFO of my company or myself and my husband. Or so bringing that sense to people and to moments of time of what matters here?

[00:10:17] And what are we up to together? And what would we like to be up? Like what do we really want to be up to together and be deliberate about it in a moment in time? Those are the those quiet places

[00:10:32] in the background where like our expectations sit there and then they show up in moments usually when least expected or not wanted. And wouldn't it be great if we paused every once in a while in whether professionally or personally and looked at yeah those kind of questions?

[00:10:53] A slightly different cut might be when we work with families who are wealthy quite often they are in business together. So a family members might all be on an executive team. Now they have a breakdown.

[00:11:11] Now you got a problem and they don't talk to each other. They just kind of are nasty with each other and they have in you when you know how that can go. I do personally, quite personally.

[00:11:22] Yeah. So then what we found is that what works is to deal first with the personal relationship and get that sorted out. So you got these brothers who are executives of a company that

[00:11:43] is spread across several states. But once we got that straightened out, I'm thinking of one in particular, then easily they themselves could easily solve. Okay good. You're going to be in charge of business development even though you live in Denver. Everybody else lives over in Arkansas

[00:12:01] someplace and we're going to manage this company and absolutely no problem solving the business issue that seems so complicated and so full of nastiness. But the nastiness was really coming from the personal relationship about which they were not in communication. Once they sorted

[00:12:23] that out, everything else goes sort of out. So we found that really sort out the personal relationship first and then go sort out the business relationship because there are very different spaces of concern like I said earlier. Yeah. Well, I had this sense in the

[00:12:44] book as I was, there's a lot of hope in the book. Right? Like there's a lot of hope that relationships can get worked out and they can improve and they can get better.

[00:13:01] But not all of them do. And I think it would be good to talk a little bit about what do you see when relationships are not working out because you've had that happen with some of your clients,

[00:13:18] I'm sure. Well almost always the moment a relationship runs aground there's a quote issue that manifests as people's opinions and they are often very oppositional opinions and they are so freighted with emotion that they have like the current baggage of other opinions

[00:13:52] and therefore you're a jerk. You did this, you did that, you caused all this problem for me and therefore you're a jerk and you're kind of criminal anyway and your mother dresses you funny.

[00:14:05] Everything goes with it. So the opinion space is where the trouble is. What we sometimes call assessments in a technical term versus assertions like statements of fact. Hardly ever do people run aground on statements of fact. What they run aground on is my opinion about that fact.

[00:14:38] You didn't get it done as promised. That's a fact. It could be true, it could be false, but it's a true-false issue. But my opinion about you because of that, now that's my opinion

[00:14:52] and that's loaded with all the characterizations, all the nastiness and there's an enormous amount of negative emotional tone. You know that the flavor of the conversation just sucks. Now if you can leave that alone you don't have to argue with it because that's an endless argument

[00:15:16] and instead orient around what really matters here for us. And you get aligned on that. This is not a matter of agreement, it's a matter of alignment. So it's not like I'm agreeing to do this by then

[00:15:34] like a promise. It's more like an alignment. Yeah, that's what I care about. Yeah, that's what's important here. Yeah, that's what matters and it matters to you too. Oh good. And the very next thing that will arise is what else do we have to pay attention to?

[00:15:52] Oh, and the moment you say I think this is something we got to pay attention to, you got the why of it. And this is why it could be important and this is why it could be a

[00:16:03] potential risk. Oh, help me see it more clearly. Now it's all exploration and clarification. Oh, and you think this is also important. Huh? I hadn't thought of that. Let me help me understand how that could work. Now what you're building there is a shared sense of the circumstances.

[00:16:26] Now so far you haven't, I haven't brought in opinions so much as in oh help me understand, help me see it all this. Now once you get a kind of a resonance, you go oh yeah we're on the same page

[00:16:42] here then that resonance means we're both making sense of things in the same way. Yeah and you have this amazing phenomenon because have you noticed this was a weird thing that just occurred one

[00:16:59] day when we were working with a family is that everything we do makes sense. Everything at the moment that we do it. Now the next moment we make oh my god I can't believe I did that but

[00:17:13] everything we do makes sense and then oh and it may make sense in a trivial way or in a very significant way but it still makes sense so when you have both people making sense of the thing

[00:17:29] of the situation in the same way now it's pretty easy to go well yeah well that only makes sense that we do that. Notice the powerful sneaky word I put in there we because once we have we

[00:17:45] now you got a game now you got a future together now you've got possibility now you can build trust everything's open if you don't have we as you versus me we got trouble. Yeah that's a sneaky

[00:18:01] way back to your question Yolanda well not that sneaky is that moment when we're able to build a we in the conversation or build a sense of we with people we definitely have a way to go forward

[00:18:19] if we're not able to do that or people actually aren't interested in you know I want what I want and that's all that matters here yeah we have to be able to have we together up to something.

[00:18:34] Yeah yeah because people have to be willing to to put some effort and energy into this so anyway I think also to okay go ahead. I think also to Sue in the past you've mentioned like sincerity

[00:18:50] like there has to be like can you talk a little bit about like you know because I think like Peter you mentioned in the very beginning like candor we're looking at the word candor a little bit

[00:19:04] differently than just you know being quote honest right right yeah well yeah because those words are both associated with trust and they're very very different honesty is definitely a part of

[00:19:21] can I trust the claims you're making are true that's honesty I did that I didn't do that this I saw this I didn't see like that kind of thing okay so but honesty is about the past

[00:19:39] sincerity is about the future and has a lot to do with intentionality like do I really intend to go down that direction that's what sincerity is and and now right around sincerity is capability

[00:19:59] can I do that right but remember can I do that is always uncertain for two reasons you don't know if the next time you'll still be able to do what you did last time

[00:20:12] and you don't know if the space you're entering is going to be as you expect it may be completely different and then all the skills you were counting on could be irrelevant or insufficient

[00:20:25] so all so all of that then starts to run into this notion of character you know then can I be counted on to let you know if I run into trouble and I'm going to be late

[00:20:42] and you count on me to make promises that you may not be so familiar with but that I am confident I can fulfill really and I'm not blowing smoke right so I can get that all of that is in the

[00:20:57] it's that's in the promise game but in the relationship game it's who am I who are you and and who are we as we look into the future so sincerity I hear an integrity in there

[00:21:16] yeah it's the ticket into the game right if we're going to be up to something together that I believe that that that game of I trust you that you're sincere that you mean what you're

[00:21:32] saying if I'm dubious and doubtful about everything coming out of you know someone else's mouth yeah that's where we have to start building the ground before we can go anywhere peter has long been very strong about you know trust trust is what must come first

[00:21:55] yeah so check this out if you're listening for what matters and you detect that what matters for the other person is that they're safe what matters first is their safety then you know that in one way or another they're gonna have to pouch everything in with that

[00:22:22] priority that's what I call being where people are sweet but they don't commit because they want to cover their possibilities they don't want to overdo anything so they're being careful to protect themselves now there's another kind of what you may find is that really what matters to somebody

[00:22:42] is that they're right that they win the argument again there's no we there's no we in the first one there's no we in the second one so then how do we get into this other which is where

[00:22:57] we something matters to us and it may be as trivial as a shared promise that really matters to us that we fulfill that promise that's often the case in a in a business or professional setting

[00:23:12] there's another kind of thing where you're building an undefined future this is what dating is all about right what are we up to now and remember dating starts with maybe you meet for

[00:23:27] coffee but uh you've got children you're way beyond the first date and you still have an opening future that is grounded in we and and and to the extent that you lose we you lose relationship

[00:23:45] uh you know and now remember most of our work not all of it because we did do some a fair amount of executive teamwork but the work with the families we really need to allow people to settle into

[00:24:05] being a we as opposed to in an adversarial mode with my siblings or my parents yeah you can see that so one element that i think can add to the drama of the relationship is the

[00:24:24] notion of power oh yes bring up you bring up in the book thank you for listening today and we sure hope you enjoyed this episode if you did please leave a comment where ever you listen to your

[00:24:45] podcast tell a friend about us and join the public facebook group we have girl take the lead or visit our website girl take the lead pod.com we also have a youtube channel where your subscription would be appreciated once you're on youtube search at girl take the lead

[00:25:04] and we've recently expanded into youtube music where you can find a video of this episode here are three takeaways from our series one the truth of candor is sincerity about one's intention and care about what matters a departure from speaking quote honestly or being quote right

[00:25:33] about the past two sincere engagement is to want to understand another more fully and three vulnerability to a power differential can wreak havoc in conversations when what matters is protecting oneself from the risk of engagement i know what a way to end our episode today right

[00:26:03] oh yeah our next episode you'll want to listen in because we're going to go into a little bit deeper about the power differential and how it can wreak havoc and we'll talk about pretense how to prepare for a listening for candor conversation and you'll hear the warmest

[00:26:24] expression of love at the end so please join us again and thanks for being here talk to you soon bye