201. The Broken Rung and Beyond: Women’s Roadmap to Leadership, A Discussion with Drew Turner

[00:00:06] Welcome to episode 201 of Girl, Take the Lead, where each week we explore womanhood and leadership. And I'm your host, Yolanda Canny. Drew Turner, millennial, joins me today to discuss the McKinsey Women in the Workplace 2024, the 10th anniversary report. Drew began her leadership journey in retail at Williams-Sonoma, eventually transitioning into learning and development.

[00:00:36] at Tesla. She's passionate about helping women break free from societal expectations and step confidently into leadership roles. With a focus on empathy and resilience, Drew empowers women to lead authentically and create lasting impact in their careers. Her vision is a world where women lead boldly and empathetically, breaking barriers for

[00:01:06] future generations. Drew is also my Chi Omega fraternity sister. And when we attended the Nancy Walton Laurie Leadership Institute, I knew instantly she'd offer us rich leadership insights. So shout out to all my Chi Omega sisters who might be listening. Here's some topics we covered. Women representation at C-suite positions.

[00:01:34] Barriers women face. Barriers women face in the pipeline. Reaching gender parity. Making career changes. Different kinds of training and education needed. And microaggressions. Enjoy the listen. And here you go.

[00:01:56] Yay. So Drew, welcome to Girl Take the Lead. So excited to have you here and to share your thoughts and insights into some of these key statistics that McKinsey has given us. But welcome. And why don't you go ahead and just introduce yourself to our listeners and viewers?

[00:02:19] Yeah, absolutely. Well, first, thanks so much for inviting me. I just I'm so happy to be here. And I'm excited for this conversation. And yeah, a little about me, I actually started my career in retail and was a retail leader for, gosh, I think probably eight years and then transitioned into working and learning and development. And I've worked for companies like Williams Sonoma and Tesla. And now I'm at a company called RX Benefits.

[00:02:44] And really, I think throughout this journey, I realized my passion is women in leadership and really helping to empower and bring up this, you know, new generation of women in leadership roles. And something that really, I think, sparked my interest both in this article and having this conversation with you, but also, I think, getting to firsthand witness what it's like to be a woman in leadership, you know, starting at a pretty young age.

[00:03:12] And, you know, I faced a lot of challenges that I thankfully have learned a lot from and really being able to uphold and, you know, bring women up. I think that's something that's so important, especially in our society in this day and age. And I'm, I'm just so excited to be here and to be able to chat about the McKinsey article with you.

[00:03:29] Yeah. And, um, listeners, we met at a leadership conference for Chi Omega and Drew was in my breakout room and we had the weekend together and oh my gosh, she was just so amazing. And I would listen to her and I'd go, oh my God, she's so much wiser than her years.

[00:03:50] I know I was the oldest woman in the room, but it was just so fun to hear everyone talk about, you know, their strengths and their, um, areas to develop. And, um, anyway, so I, I knew like you stood out as a leader. And so I'm so excited that we're going to get to do this episode.

[00:04:12] So, um, I think we can start first and you're a coach as well, right? I mean, you're coaching.

[00:04:20] Yeah, I am. And I am so appreciative of you bringing up that conference too. And it was the, if I'm remembering this correctly, I think it was the Nancy Walton, Lori, Chi Omega leadership. It was a flagship session. And it's so funny that you mentioned that about me because the minute that I heard you talk, it's like, oh, brilliant. Like, absolutely. This is my sister. Like, no, not a shadow.

[00:04:40] I was a doubt in my mind. And it was, yeah. What an amazing experience that was, right? Just to be able to be surrounded by women in so many different stages of life and hear each other's perspectives and advice and really learning more about ourselves too, right? Like what a, what an amazing piece. Um, yeah. And I'm, I'm also, I'm in the process of launching my coaching business, which is so exciting.

[00:05:05] And I have already kind of obtained a couple clients and I'm specifically working with women because this is just, this is, this is my path. I have decided this is my path. And it's been amazing thus far. Like I had a client breakthrough this week that sent me on this high of, I, I didn't go to bed, I think until 2am the next morning.

[00:05:28] Because it was, I had a dream because I was absolutely partying in my life. I think sometimes I really, I'm really excited about it because it was, um, I have loved it in the way.

[00:05:57] And it was, um, like, like, uh, like, uh, my mom, uh, like, um, um, here's a smaller unit and it's, uh, like, uh, like, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh

[00:05:58] I am all about it and just helping to bring women up.

[00:06:01] Yeah.

[00:06:02] That's so wonderful that you're finding your path so early, you know, like a lot of people

[00:06:06] come to it later, um, after they've suffered for 20 years in their fields, people should

[00:06:15] be doing something else, but, um, it's great that you're finding your path now and that

[00:06:21] you really have the, the passion for it.

[00:06:24] And I've been listening more and more, like little messages that I'm getting from people.

[00:06:31] And it's really, you know, just keep following your passion.

[00:06:35] Don't give up on it.

[00:06:36] Just keep at it.

[00:06:39] And I think, you know, that's just such an important lesson to get and kudos to you for

[00:06:45] getting there.

[00:06:46] Thank you.

[00:06:47] You know what though?

[00:06:48] Right back at you, right?

[00:06:50] Because eventually, I mean, I think there's so many people that never find that or never

[00:06:54] think it's even a possibility for them.

[00:06:57] Right.

[00:06:57] And that's, I understand it because I think for a long time I was in the same, I was in

[00:07:03] the same headspace.

[00:07:04] And, you know, at the minute that you find the thing, like my guess is very similar to

[00:07:08] you.

[00:07:08] The minute you find that outlet, that's really yours.

[00:07:12] It's unlike anything else I've experienced in the entirety of my life.

[00:07:16] Yeah.

[00:07:17] Forward from that is just, I, I don't, yeah, I think it's, it's hard to describe in words,

[00:07:23] you know?

[00:07:24] Yeah.

[00:07:24] Well, one of the things that McKinsey says, right, they, they did this women in the workplace

[00:07:30] 2024 10th anniversary report.

[00:07:33] And it's kind of the, when they talk about women today make up 29% of C-suite positions

[00:07:42] compared to 17% in 2015, but they say that women are still underrepresented in, across

[00:07:53] the pipeline and the gender gap still persists regardless of race and ethnicity.

[00:08:01] So on one hand I went, oh, yay, we're up a couple of percentage points.

[00:08:06] But still, what did they say?

[00:08:09] It would take like 22 years for white women to reach parity and twice as long for women

[00:08:15] of color.

[00:08:17] Oh boy.

[00:08:18] And I, I remember when I made it to the C-suite, I was vice president of global marketing for

[00:08:28] contact lens company and how it was so different than being a manager.

[00:08:35] The skills I needed to move the political landscape, so different.

[00:08:45] And one of the thoughts that came to me, I wonder what you think about this is that if we do want

[00:08:51] to get more women into that position, it's not, I mean, they got to get preparation and there has

[00:09:01] to be some learning in some skill areas and that you really haven't had up to that point.

[00:09:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:09:11] Yeah.

[00:09:12] I mean, I absolutely agree.

[00:09:13] And I'm also, I'm so curious, I think, to hear your thoughts on like, what do you think

[00:09:18] helped you get to that point in your career?

[00:09:23] Well, I think part of it was that I was creative and I kept offering innovative solutions.

[00:09:33] I was always pretty good at that.

[00:09:35] I have, I have one of my skills, strengths is definitely in the area of creativity and

[00:09:43] I could just look at something and figure out how to simplify it or how to make it easier.

[00:09:50] I think that was a talent I had and I held onto that and let that one kind of take me further.

[00:09:59] But I think a couple of the things I had to learn, Drew, one was how to articulate my

[00:10:06] point of view in a way that others could hear it and how to be okay with conflict.

[00:10:19] You know, like I can remember, I'll tell you this one quick story.

[00:10:23] The man who had, who had mentored me through to get to that position, I disagreed with him

[00:10:31] in a meeting.

[00:10:34] And after he took me aside and he said, remember how you got to that position?

[00:10:41] I was the one who helped you get there.

[00:10:45] Right.

[00:10:46] Which was code for, you're supposed to have my back now.

[00:10:49] This is how it works politically.

[00:10:53] I had no idea.

[00:10:54] I mean, I just thought I got to be yo in all situations and to talk and see and articulate

[00:11:02] what I saw, but no, that was new.

[00:11:08] I mean, what an experience.

[00:11:10] Oh my gosh.

[00:11:11] And I mean, something that you mentioned there is there's this huge piece of something called

[00:11:19] navigating the double bind.

[00:11:21] And I learned about this because I did a certification for women in leadership through eCornell and

[00:11:26] they talk about it.

[00:11:28] And it's this concept of, so on the emotional spectrum, we are either too much or too little

[00:11:37] and it's viewed very poorly.

[00:11:40] So I'll give you an example.

[00:11:42] You probably speaking up and advocating for what you thought was correct.

[00:11:49] Well, I would argue if a man had done that, he would have been falling in the level of like,

[00:11:54] okay, that's strategic thought, right?

[00:11:56] That's sharing opinion.

[00:11:59] But because you did it, well, now you're too opinionated and you don't understand how the

[00:12:07] system works, right?

[00:12:09] And I think that's a huge element of where that education piece comes in because, I mean,

[00:12:15] prior to me doing this certification, which I did this year, I had never heard of these

[00:12:20] concepts, right?

[00:12:21] And that this very narrow window that we have to try to exist within is almost impossible

[00:12:30] to try to exist within if you have no idea that it is even there, right?

[00:12:36] And I think the other piece of that too is this, it's almost like in order to be okay in conflict,

[00:12:45] right?

[00:12:46] A lot of people would view that as like, oh, well, the woman is supposed to then help

[00:12:52] solve the situation and supposed to de-escalate it and make it calm and peaceful again, right?

[00:12:59] So even if I'm standing in my ground and this is something that happened to me in my career,

[00:13:04] I'm standing my ground and I'm coming back and I'm pushing back on someone not respecting

[00:13:09] my own boundaries or my values of how I expect them to treat me.

[00:13:13] Okay.

[00:13:15] Well, like now I'm, it's like that, that's, it's such a double standard too, right?

[00:13:21] Because men don't follow that same and they're fine.

[00:13:24] I think white men specifically don't follow that and they're fine.

[00:13:27] And that's, that's really challenging to try to navigate within, you know, especially when

[00:13:33] you're not used to it.

[00:13:34] Do you think it's, it's because it's the, they're the majority, like in these, in this

[00:13:41] article, they keep talking about that gender equity.

[00:13:45] I mean, if that, if it was a thing, it could actually change so much of how we see things.

[00:13:53] And I think they, they had something in the article similar to what you were talking about.

[00:13:59] Oh, the broken rung, which was getting into the entry point, right?

[00:14:09] Yep.

[00:14:09] Getting that first promotion.

[00:14:12] Yep.

[00:14:13] Yep.

[00:14:14] Yeah.

[00:14:14] So I think they mentioned, so men significantly outnumber women at the manager level, which

[00:14:20] makes it incredibly challenging for companies to support sustained progress and more senior

[00:14:26] levels.

[00:14:27] Right.

[00:14:27] So that's where this disconnect is coming from on, to your point, like I viewed 17 to 25

[00:14:35] is okay.

[00:14:36] This is like a pretty big improvement.

[00:14:38] But then you see that that happened over a span of nine years is how long that took, right?

[00:14:46] I think from 2015 to now.

[00:14:48] And in order to get more women into C-suite positions, you need to have more women at every

[00:14:54] single step along the way, right?

[00:14:58] One of which being that first transition from an individual contributor level to a leadership

[00:15:03] role.

[00:15:04] And I mean, that's something that I have seen firsthand at many of the companies that I

[00:15:09] worked for previously of, you know, you look at who's at the C-suite and you look at,

[00:15:15] okay, maybe someone may have made it to a supervisor level, but then you go up one level of that

[00:15:21] and there's like barely any women.

[00:15:23] And then above, I mean, right.

[00:15:25] It's like, it's, it's almost, it creates like, I like to use a faucet analogy because that

[00:15:30] helped me visualize this when I was learning about it.

[00:15:33] But if you have the faucet on full swing, right.

[00:15:36] And you have, you're filling that pipeline with more women, then of course you're going

[00:15:40] to have more make it to the C-suite.

[00:15:42] Right.

[00:15:43] But the issue right now is it's a drip.

[00:15:46] I would say it's low leak right now, which is causing that less representation at the top.

[00:15:54] Right.

[00:15:54] Right.

[00:15:54] Because the number that they said was for every 100 men who received their first promotion

[00:15:59] to manager in 2018, 79 women were promoted.

[00:16:06] And in 2024, it's up to 81 women.

[00:16:10] So that, I thought that was kind of an interesting thing.

[00:16:13] Cause I, I know my Gen Z daughter is really working towards being a manager and I'm, you know,

[00:16:22] holding back from saying, but honey, there's so, there's this thing called the broken run.

[00:16:27] You're up against it.

[00:16:29] I'm not going to do that, but there, you know, it, it, it kind of helps.

[00:16:36] I think people to understand how difficult, I mean, I, I know that in my first job I was

[00:16:46] there and I could see, I wasn't getting promoted.

[00:16:49] I got my MBA and then went to work for a carnation company, which was, um, pet food.

[00:16:57] And I could tell it didn't fit.

[00:17:00] And I went, I'm not going to get promoted here.

[00:17:03] I, you know, I made it from assistant to associate.

[00:17:06] And then the next one was manager.

[00:17:08] So I decided to, for my career development, I just totally moved away from that, from that

[00:17:17] organization.

[00:17:17] And I went to New York and worked in cosmetics who valued my training, my early training and

[00:17:28] went in as a manager.

[00:17:30] And that was how I figured out how to move up the rung and then the ladder and just sort

[00:17:39] of, okay, the next one I'm moving up a little bit more and I'm moving up a little bit more.

[00:17:44] Um, I knew that I wouldn't make it in just one position.

[00:17:49] It just wasn't going to happen for me.

[00:17:51] Mm-hmm.

[00:17:52] Yeah.

[00:17:53] Yeah.

[00:17:54] Something you just pointed out there that I think is so important to just in general,

[00:17:59] but I think specifically for women, like you noticed that you weren't going to continue

[00:18:04] to get promoted within that other company and being able to recognize that and say, okay,

[00:18:09] like this isn't where it's going to happen.

[00:18:12] Let's go find some place that is.

[00:18:14] And I, this is the theory there.

[00:18:17] I have, I have no, no, no data to back this up.

[00:18:19] But, but I think one of the reasons that I think it's particularly challenging for women

[00:18:26] is once we've started at an organization and we've built relationships, right.

[00:18:31] It's really hard to, it's hard to start over, especially if you're already in a mid to senior

[00:18:38] management level position.

[00:18:40] Right.

[00:18:40] Um, because I, I mean, I think for multiple, I mean, good reason, like, you know, starting

[00:18:47] over means you're starting that trust from scratch and you're like, I'm kind of experiencing

[00:18:53] that right now in my, my new role.

[00:18:56] And like, thank goodness, like RX Benefits has so much gender diversity at the top and

[00:19:02] they're an incredible company.

[00:19:03] It's a big reason why I feel so blessed that this is my, you know, this is my next role.

[00:19:08] But I think there's, there's a lot of companies that don't behave that way.

[00:19:14] It's very obvious, right.

[00:19:16] When you're on the inside that like, Oh, I'm not going to get far here.

[00:19:20] Right.

[00:19:20] And I think it's okay to acknowledge that like, if this isn't where it's going to happen,

[00:19:26] then I need to move to some place that's going to help me.

[00:19:29] And that's going to educate me on getting there because also to your point, like there's not

[00:19:35] like more, there's more now, but there's not a whole lot of leadership education out

[00:19:41] there.

[00:19:42] I think that's a big industry that's growing, which is great.

[00:19:45] It's amazing to see that improve as a compared to, I think when I first got promoted, I got

[00:19:50] handed a leadership book.

[00:19:52] I was like, okay, here you go.

[00:19:53] That's your time.

[00:19:54] Like what?

[00:19:55] Okay.

[00:19:55] I'll figure it out.

[00:19:57] Um, I think there's, you know,

[00:19:59] there's a lot of development in that area, which is fantastic, but I think there's still,

[00:20:04] there's a big gap on specifically educating women on differences between a man in leadership

[00:20:15] and a woman in leadership.

[00:20:17] And there's things that you have to take into account.

[00:20:20] And it's really unfortunate.

[00:20:21] I am sure one day as a society, we'll get there.

[00:20:25] It's as we know, though, from this article, it's going to take a while for us to get

[00:20:30] there at this space.

[00:20:31] And you need to be willing to just like, quite honestly, be selfish and like, choose yourself,

[00:20:37] choose the company that's going to help you grow and that you feel like you could learn

[00:20:41] at.

[00:20:41] Cause there's nothing truly like, I don't think there's anything worse than being in a company

[00:20:49] that you feel like is stifling your own growth for no apparent reason.

[00:20:53] Well, I think to your pointing to one of the things in the research that said that women are no more

[00:21:00] optimistic today than they have been in the past, which is a sad statement because when I reflect

[00:21:10] back on my getting started, I just go, oh my God, it's got to be better than that.

[00:21:15] And it's not.

[00:21:17] Oh, but, um, and I think you, you know, like you're saying that you can almost sense it,

[00:21:24] you know, our, our, our, um, intuition, the sensibility we have about things.

[00:21:30] And I think it's important for us as women to remember that it's okay to tell the truth

[00:21:38] about it.

[00:21:39] Like you were saying, if this isn't the place, that's okay.

[00:21:43] I mean, we'll be here for as long as we need to be here, but we'll move on.

[00:21:47] We'll have a fuller life.

[00:21:49] This isn't it, you know, we can, we can do more, but to trust their intuition.

[00:21:55] And if they're no more optimistic today than they were, you know, back in 1978,

[00:22:06] although I'm not sure sometimes it does feel like we're going backwards, but

[00:22:10] it does, doesn't it?

[00:22:13] Um, but I can see, you know, that we need to trust our, our gut and what, what we're trying

[00:22:21] to tell ourselves about our careers.

[00:22:23] Yeah.

[00:22:24] I love it.

[00:22:24] Yeah.

[00:22:25] That point I think is so important.

[00:22:26] And I am so glad that you mentioned that because I think intuition and listening to ourselves,

[00:22:33] I think is something when we look at a societal standpoint and I mean, gosh, talk about like,

[00:22:41] you know, um, societal trauma and things that have been, you know, generational trauma.

[00:22:48] Like, I mean, for how many years, I mean, still, still to this day and age when women trust

[00:22:56] that, well, now they're crazy.

[00:22:57] Right.

[00:22:58] And it's, I think this is, and this is not something that is easily done.

[00:23:04] Right.

[00:23:04] It's like learning to block that out.

[00:23:07] But for so much of our entire upbringing, we are constantly compared to that and constantly

[00:23:14] brought up.

[00:23:15] This is how you behave and this is how you don't.

[00:23:17] And I think it's honestly, I think now, well, it's always been there, but I think specifically

[00:23:23] in this article is really what that pointed out to me is there's this core level of like,

[00:23:27] we are still teaching women that are now getting into the workforce that this is how they're

[00:23:33] supposed to operate and this is how they should be behaving.

[00:23:36] And this is what a manager looks like.

[00:23:38] And it's not, it's not women and it's not people of color.

[00:23:43] And that's, I think where the issue lies truly is like, we need to break this societal

[00:23:51] conditioning that's happening.

[00:23:53] That's making women get into these roles and feel like frauds.

[00:23:57] Like, I think that's a, that's a big, big point of imposter syndrome.

[00:24:00] And I mean, hell, I know I felt it.

[00:24:03] Like I got into that role and I was like, what am I doing?

[00:24:06] Like this, this pretending and this fake it till you make it mindset got me, got me so

[00:24:12] far.

[00:24:12] And then it wasn't enough.

[00:24:14] And it was like, oh my gosh, I feel like I'm drowning.

[00:24:17] Like I was not prepared for this, you know?

[00:24:19] And I think that's, that's also really hard to face.

[00:24:22] And it took me years to rebound my confidence from that point.

[00:24:26] You know, um, I'm, I am so curious too.

[00:24:30] I want to, I want to hear your thoughts on this.

[00:24:32] So as you kind of continue to grow in your career and then completely stop that side of

[00:24:40] it, was there anything from a mindset standpoint that you think really shifted once you stepped

[00:24:47] out of the corporate life?

[00:24:51] Well, I needed a lot of recovery time, you know, like, um, I think the article speaks to

[00:25:00] some of this too, that, you know, there's like this mental, um, a mental state that kind

[00:25:10] of takes us over when we're in and we're working day in and day out and the microaggressions

[00:25:19] kind of catch up.

[00:25:21] And for me, I got to that point where I went enough, I'm done.

[00:25:29] And when I've talked to women, my age who have retired, I've, you know, they'll, they'll say

[00:25:34] to me, well, I don't know, maybe I'll keep at it.

[00:25:38] I'll keep working or whatever.

[00:25:39] And I went, you're not there yet.

[00:25:41] When you get there, I'm telling you what it looks like.

[00:25:44] It looks like, no, not one more day, not one more hour.

[00:25:50] I'm done.

[00:25:51] I'm completely done.

[00:25:54] And I think that was the mindset of me saying, it's okay to be done.

[00:26:02] It's okay to let go of that, um, identity that I thought I had, that I thought was so important

[00:26:10] to have and go into something unknown.

[00:26:15] Like you becoming a coach, like, okay, I'm just going to, I don't know.

[00:26:20] I'm going and I'm going to figure it out and it's going to be all right.

[00:26:26] But isn't that kind of like, you've got to that point too, where you know, this is,

[00:26:31] this is what needs to happen for me.

[00:26:34] Totally.

[00:26:35] Yeah.

[00:26:35] And something that I, yeah, I'm hearing in that is it's this both.

[00:26:41] It sounds like you recognize that you were done because the time was now, the time was

[00:26:47] no longer in the future, but also giving yourself permission.

[00:26:51] Right.

[00:26:52] I think that's something that I definitely struggled with.

[00:26:56] Like when, you know, I got laid off from Tesla in April and I was like, oh my gosh, like

[00:27:02] what now?

[00:27:02] I think to your point also, like my identity was tied to my job and the funny piece is like,

[00:27:12] this was probably five years prior.

[00:27:15] I had gotten to a similar point and really burned out and needed to take a leave of absence

[00:27:21] from my mental health.

[00:27:22] And it was during that, that I decided, okay, we're never doing this again.

[00:27:28] And then what happened?

[00:27:29] I did it right all over again.

[00:27:33] And I think that that's a big reason on the like one, why I was so intentional of picking

[00:27:41] the path for me.

[00:27:43] And I think the second element of it too, and this is something that kind of was a thread

[00:27:48] throughout, I think my last probably three years at Tesla too, was this like, let's no

[00:27:53] longer live in fear.

[00:27:55] Let's live in, hey, if this is an opportunity and I want to try it, then let's go try it

[00:28:01] and see what happens and stop being so connected to the outcome because I was so fearful of

[00:28:08] making the wrong choice.

[00:28:10] And in reality, I think now, you know, hindsight being 2020, if there's anything that we are

[00:28:18] called to do that we have an interest in and we try it and it doesn't work.

[00:28:23] Okay.

[00:28:24] Well, we tried it, you know?

[00:28:26] And I think that's, that's such an important piece for us to keep in mind.

[00:28:30] And I think with that too, I think comes, um, I'll recognize like a lot of, I think, privilege

[00:28:36] that I had the ability to do that.

[00:28:38] And I knew that, you know, moving from a corporate or from a, you know, manager retail role to learning

[00:28:45] and development, like I had very supportive leadership at the time.

[00:28:49] And like, if I didn't like it, I'm like, hey, you come back then, you know?

[00:28:53] And I know that's not always an option, but I think the second piece of that too, is like

[00:28:58] really tapping into like going internal when the layoff happened.

[00:29:02] Like, okay, what am I going to do?

[00:29:04] What am I going to do?

[00:29:05] Because I don't want to repeat this again.

[00:29:09] And coaching, I had always been curious by and interested in.

[00:29:16] And the program that I looked at, this was right after the layoff happened.

[00:29:21] Of course, it's like the most expensive coaching program on the planet.

[00:29:25] And I was like, of course, that's the one I'm drawn to, right?

[00:29:28] And I was like, okay, so I'm going to do my due diligence.

[00:29:31] I'm going to go look at other programs because I need to do that for myself.

[00:29:35] And then it was a couple months and I came back and I was like, this is it.

[00:29:39] Like, I have no, not a shadow of a doubt in my mind.

[00:29:42] And I think that's, it's just important.

[00:29:45] It goes back to like listening to yourself, you know, listening to what your intuition is telling you.

[00:29:50] That's purely what I did.

[00:29:52] And less than 24 hours later is when this job offer came through after I committed to that coaching program.

[00:29:59] It's like, oh my gosh, okay.

[00:30:00] I am listening now.

[00:30:02] Yeah.

[00:30:03] Well, I think sometimes when we look down a path and it's a new path and you go, oh, I don't know.

[00:30:11] And the thing that I find, have found is that it did look like it was going to be something remarkably different.

[00:30:21] But actually what it was, it was building on where I had been.

[00:30:27] And they kind of just support each other and they keep moving on each other and it all matters.

[00:30:35] It all comes together.

[00:30:37] It isn't like you're really starting from an empty spot.

[00:30:44] You're, you're actually starting from a place of strength and because, because you're building off of all of your previous experiences.

[00:30:58] So you're much wiser going in.

[00:31:02] And I can't tell you how many times I thought, oh, this is going to be so cool.

[00:31:05] It's going to be so different.

[00:31:07] And I'm going to get in here and it's going to be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:31:10] And then you get in and after your 90 days, it's like, what have I done?

[00:31:16] What have I done?

[00:31:19] Yeah.

[00:31:20] But, but, you know, you do get, I think the saving grace is that you do build and you do get experience and you do get wisdom and you, you do, you handle things differently.

[00:31:34] Totally.

[00:31:35] You know, I think I was laid off like four times.

[00:31:39] Wow.

[00:31:40] And it's hard to take it personally after the fourth time, the first time kind of personal.

[00:31:46] And then the second time.

[00:31:47] Hmm.

[00:31:47] And then the third time is like, well, maybe it's not me.

[00:31:51] And then the fourth time you go, it's definitely not me.

[00:31:54] Yeah.

[00:31:55] Yeah.

[00:31:56] But it, it, it's just so interesting to, to kind of consider.

[00:32:02] How.

[00:32:04] Each experience brings us something.

[00:32:08] Like you being a coach and having that previous experience of that you have, it's going to make you a remarkable coach.

[00:32:16] I understand.

[00:32:18] Yeah.

[00:32:19] Yeah.

[00:32:20] I, I'm so, yeah.

[00:32:22] I love, I love that point you just brought up.

[00:32:24] Cause I think there's, it's really hard for us to remember that.

[00:32:30] Even when a layoff happens, right.

[00:32:33] You might not work for that person anymore, but you're taking with you all of your experiences, all of your lessons learned, all of your, you know, growth and personal development that you did in that role.

[00:32:46] Professional development, like all of those things are coming with you.

[00:32:49] Those are not staying with the employer.

[00:32:50] Right.

[00:32:51] And that's something that I think, I mean, I'll admit it, like probably two months after my layoff, I didn't, I didn't understand how I wasn't getting interviews and how I, you know, and like the job market right now is really tough.

[00:33:08] And it's really easy to slip into that place of not feeling worthy.

[00:33:13] And it was at that point that I actually was talking to a life coach that I've been working with for a while.

[00:33:20] And she mentioned that she said, you know, you know, all your experiences come with you.

[00:33:26] It just makes you wiser.

[00:33:29] And instead of, I don't get me wrong.

[00:33:31] I did not get rid of all of the resentment.

[00:33:33] Cause I think that's still, that's still present in me, but there's, it adds this level of

[00:33:38] gratitude of like, okay, that really did help me.

[00:33:42] Right.

[00:33:43] And at the same time, it also really sucked to have to go through that and experience it.

[00:33:48] Right.

[00:33:48] And like, both can be true.

[00:33:50] They don't cancel each other out.

[00:33:51] And, you know, I think there's so many, I mean, yeah, so many lessons that I've learned throughout my career that has helped me, I think, get to where I am now.

[00:34:01] And even being able to know like what questions to double click on and what to, what to ask a little deeper on.

[00:34:10] Right.

[00:34:10] And like, all of those are things I learned throughout my leadership career, throughout being in learning and development and training other leaders, throughout like getting to engage with anyone.

[00:34:23] Right.

[00:34:24] Right.

[00:34:24] It's a interpersonal skill that like, I just learned and now I'm like, wow.

[00:34:29] So like what I'm hearing is the, the heart of the, the right path doesn't always have to be really hard.

[00:34:35] It doesn't have to be always.

[00:34:37] You know, you can listen to that and that's okay.

[00:34:41] I think the other thing too, is that the right path does, you don't need to work so hard at it.

[00:34:49] Like, I think there's something about us women walking in that we think we have to work really hard.

[00:34:56] We have to overcompensate.

[00:34:58] We have to work the long hours.

[00:35:00] We have to, you know, take light and even this, they said this in the, in the research, right?

[00:35:06] Four in 10 women with partners say they are responsible for most of all the household work, a number that has grown since 2016.

[00:35:15] So, I mean, it's just like work, work, work.

[00:35:18] And I, I think that was part of the mindset shift too, for me, not having that rush, that adrenaline rush constantly in my body.

[00:35:33] Like, oh, that's relaxation.

[00:35:38] That's what that feels like.

[00:35:41] You know, you just sort of go, whoa, this is very different.

[00:35:45] If I'm not driving constantly.

[00:35:50] And boy, wouldn't that be a marvelous way to be in yourself?

[00:35:57] You know, like just to have that moment of you have enough.

[00:36:02] You have enough.

[00:36:03] You've worked enough.

[00:36:05] You, you are enough.

[00:36:06] Don't keep pushing.

[00:36:08] You don't have to keep pushing.

[00:36:12] And sometimes I'll find myself though, like between my podcast and my.

[00:36:18] Um, heart of the, the gift shop that I have associated with the podcast.

[00:36:24] I find myself going, oh, and I've got this order, this order.

[00:36:27] And I'll go, oh, that's familiar.

[00:36:31] That's me pushing myself.

[00:36:33] Guess what?

[00:36:34] You don't need to do that today.

[00:36:37] It doesn't serve you.

[00:36:38] You can stop that.

[00:36:41] You know, you are the CEO.

[00:36:43] Cause I'll say something like, well, I should get this other episode out and blah, blah, blah.

[00:36:46] And I'll go, wait a minute.

[00:36:48] You're the CEO.

[00:36:51] Of you.

[00:36:52] You get to decide.

[00:36:54] And then I, I can relax.

[00:36:57] What a great, great exercise for us all to remember that we are the CEO of our life and

[00:37:03] we get to decide what's in it and what's not.

[00:37:09] Yeah, really?

[00:37:10] Yeah.

[00:37:10] I, to be honest, I don't think I had ever connected those.

[00:37:16] And I, I totally, I can completely resonate with that.

[00:37:21] Like, I think there's probably throughout the first, oh gosh, my guess is seven years of

[00:37:27] my career.

[00:37:27] It was always pushing for what's next.

[00:37:31] What's next?

[00:37:31] What's the promotion that's coming up?

[00:37:33] What's the, and it was so exhausting being focused on whatever the next thing was.

[00:37:40] Right.

[00:37:40] And I think there's at the beginning of my career, like, sure.

[00:37:44] I think that helped me get to a certain level and, you know, I'm appreciative of that, but

[00:37:48] I think there's also, that also contributes to, I think how many times I was completely

[00:37:55] burned out and how many times I wouldn't do anything, but just sleep on days off.

[00:38:01] And that's, yeah.

[00:38:05] Wow.

[00:38:05] Yeah.

[00:38:05] I don't think I've ever, I've never connected that.

[00:38:08] I think that's, you're totally right though.

[00:38:09] It goes back to this, like feeling like I need to prove myself and feeling like I'm not enough

[00:38:16] unless my output is high.

[00:38:20] And yeah, I'm not, honestly, I think within the last.

[00:38:24] Um, no, I would say, I mean, within the last like six weeks of me in this new role, like

[00:38:29] I think that's.

[00:38:32] Showed kind of both two sides of it.

[00:38:34] I think one, there's kind of the corporate culture that drives that too.

[00:38:37] It very depends on the company.

[00:38:38] But I think the second element of that too, is like knowing.

[00:38:43] And disconnecting from where your worth is and having that not be tied to your job.

[00:38:49] Right.

[00:38:50] And I mean, I've just, I've noticed a night and day difference of stepping into this completely

[00:38:59] new corporate environment and completely new people that I'm working with.

[00:39:06] And everyone always assumes positive intent and is always supportive.

[00:39:12] And even last week I caught myself saying like, why am I getting so worked up about something?

[00:39:18] Like, and I went through this little period of like, you know why it's because this is your

[00:39:25] first time.

[00:39:25] This is your first time doing this and that's okay.

[00:39:28] So give yourself a break and just, Ooh, it's even this.

[00:39:33] I think this is what ties to expectations that you have of yourself.

[00:39:38] Right.

[00:39:41] And I think more so now than ever, I think I'm, I don't know.

[00:39:45] I feel blessed that I'm finally getting to the point of like, okay, so I'm good.

[00:39:50] Like I'm good with who I am as a human.

[00:39:52] And my worth is not going to be tied to what my output is.

[00:39:55] Right.

[00:39:56] And that's.

[00:39:57] Bravo.

[00:39:59] I mean, my guess is I say this now and I'm sure next week I'll have some something come

[00:40:04] up where I, you know, get off the wagon again, but I think it's so important just to be able

[00:40:09] to identify that within ourselves.

[00:40:11] Absolutely.

[00:40:13] And to be at, at home with it, you know, and yeah, it doesn't last forever.

[00:40:18] I mean, you might have a moment of that and you, you know, we just move, we just keep

[00:40:24] unfolding.

[00:40:25] We just keep going through it.

[00:40:28] Well, my darling, we could talk all day, but I'm wondering if there's any other points

[00:40:35] that we should share.

[00:40:37] I think we covered most of the research you were going to cover.

[00:40:41] Yeah.

[00:40:41] I think one element that I really wanted to hit on is the point about microaggressions that

[00:40:47] you talked about earlier.

[00:40:48] Right.

[00:40:49] And that I think, at least for me, I don't think I realized the toll it took until I was

[00:40:59] no longer in an environment where that was happening.

[00:41:03] Microaggressions such as.

[00:41:05] You know, if I'm the only woman in a meeting, then I, all of a sudden I'm the one that's

[00:41:09] supposed to be taking notes.

[00:41:11] Right.

[00:41:11] Or being interrupted, I think is a big one.

[00:41:15] And that's, that takes a toll.

[00:41:18] Right.

[00:41:18] And being able to have organizations that support not only the education of those pieces, but

[00:41:25] that also support the feedback being given so that when those happen, the behavior changes.

[00:41:31] Because that's something that really is what's going to make equitable workplaces.

[00:41:38] And while microaggressions still occur, they, it's just leading to more women feeling burned

[00:41:44] out and not wanting to continue to climb the ladder.

[00:41:47] Right.

[00:41:48] And I think you're onto something there that even the education about microaggressions so

[00:41:53] that people begin to see them and observe them and don't blame the person.

[00:42:01] Um, that there's something wrong with that person.

[00:42:05] Perhaps there's something wrong with the workflow or there's something wrong with the communication

[00:42:09] that's happening.

[00:42:11] Um, and if you look at the source of some of that microaggression, it could be something

[00:42:18] that is totally unintentional, but it's being played out in a certain way.

[00:42:24] Um, that's hard for people.

[00:42:28] I think sometimes to get, but I do think that that's an important part of the training and

[00:42:37] the education that needs to happen.

[00:42:40] Totally agree.

[00:42:41] Yeah.

[00:42:42] Cause a lot of times too, like when I've given feedback on not necessarily microaggressions,

[00:42:48] but things in general, a lot of times folks don't even realize they're doing it.

[00:42:52] Yeah.

[00:42:53] Right.

[00:42:54] It's totally subconscious and they do it and they don't even realize that it's happening.

[00:42:59] So I think to that point too, right?

[00:43:01] Like, I think it's one thing to address it and have it continue to happen and like, okay,

[00:43:07] continue to coach on it.

[00:43:08] But I think the second piece of that really is making sure that the way you're approaching

[00:43:15] it is in a way that's assuming positive intent to the best of your ability.

[00:43:20] And of course there's situations that can come up where it's obvious there's no positive

[00:43:25] intent there.

[00:43:26] Um, in which case deal with them as you will.

[00:43:28] Right.

[00:43:28] But I think I would like to assume that there's always like a little nugget of some type of

[00:43:35] positive intent that we can give, even if it's maybe they don't realize they're doing

[00:43:39] it.

[00:43:40] Right.

[00:43:40] Yeah.

[00:43:41] That was good.

[00:43:42] Well, how can our listeners and viewers find you, follow you and be in touch with you, um,

[00:43:50] and engage your coaching services?

[00:43:52] Yeah.

[00:43:53] So best way to find me is LinkedIn right now.

[00:43:56] Um, I will be sure to send you a link so we can just include that.

[00:44:00] And on there, I have a little book and appointment button.

[00:44:02] If anyone's curious to learn more about what coaching with me would look like.

[00:44:06] And that's, it's a totally free 30 minute exploratory session to be able to go through

[00:44:11] what they're hoping to address and where I can kind of fit into that.

[00:44:16] And yeah, I'm, I'm very active on LinkedIn.

[00:44:19] So even if people want to see more about, I think I did a whole post on this McKinsey article,

[00:44:24] that's all there.

[00:44:25] And yeah, I'd love to hear from some women that think they could benefit.

[00:44:29] Oh, terrific.

[00:44:31] And so I'd like to, I know that you said you were, um, an, a younger millennial, but, um,

[00:44:39] I'd love to ask this question.

[00:44:40] What would you tell your 20 something self today?

[00:44:45] Hmm.

[00:44:47] Be kind and gentle to yourself because this is our first time experiencing this life thing.

[00:44:56] That's gorgeous.

[00:44:58] Oh, true.

[00:44:59] Thank you.

[00:45:00] And, you know, really posting all your posting this, what I went, I got to get this girl on

[00:45:04] the podcast.

[00:45:05] So listeners keep doing it because it really does raise your visibility and get you out

[00:45:15] there.

[00:45:15] So, and we all need the practice to voice ourselves and to talk about that and not be in the corner,

[00:45:24] um, holding onto our own views when we could be changing things and motivating people.

[00:45:31] So thank you for doing that.

[00:45:33] Absolutely.

[00:45:34] Let's say I've loved being on this and I'm, yeah, I'd love that.

[00:45:38] I think LinkedIn's a great outlet and it's to your point, it's resonating with so many.

[00:45:45] And I think also really that's where a lot of changes can happen.

[00:45:49] And I'm, I will say I am on the hopeful side, but I know most women aren't.

[00:45:55] All right.

[00:45:56] Thank you so much listeners and viewers for being here.

[00:45:59] Take care.

[00:46:03] Thank you for listening today.

[00:46:04] And we sure hope you enjoyed this episode.

[00:46:06] If you did, please leave a comment wherever you listen to your podcasts, tell a friend about

[00:46:12] us, join our public Facebook group, girl, take the lead, or visit our website, girl, take

[00:46:19] the lead pod.com.

[00:46:21] We also have a YouTube channel where your subscription would be appreciated.

[00:46:26] Once you're on YouTube search at girl, take the lead, and we've expanded into YouTube

[00:46:31] music where you can find a video of this episode.

[00:46:35] And you can also find the video on Spotify.

[00:46:39] Here are three takeaways from this episode.

[00:46:43] One, while women make up 29% of C-suite positions, and that's up from 2015, which was 17%.

[00:46:54] It will take 22 years for white women to reach parity and even longer for women of color.

[00:47:05] Two, the broken rung disconnect is about the lack of women moving into the managerial position.

[00:47:14] For every 100 men, 81 women are promoted to manager as of 2024.

[00:47:23] Another finding, women are no more optimistic today than they have been in the past.

[00:47:33] Three, it's good to remember that we can give ourselves permission to change it up by listening

[00:47:39] to ourselves and our own intuition.

[00:47:41] And all the experiences we have come along with us in making a career change.

[00:47:49] Our next episode will feature our guest, Tammy Alvarez, Gen X, who joins me to discuss her new book,

[00:47:58] Escaping the Career Trap, Transform Your Apathy, a self-leadership blueprint for high achievers

[00:48:05] who want to experience true career fulfillment.

[00:48:09] Tammy is the CEO of the Career Winner Circle, author, professional keynote speaker, inspirational coach,

[00:48:18] and former corporate executive.

[00:48:21] Tammy's book is written for people who feel disenfranchised.

[00:48:26] And the so what is that if you start to become the CEO of You, Inc., everything changes.

[00:48:35] Talk to you soon.

[00:48:37] Bye.