321. Hard Conversations: Clarity, Kindness, and Trust with Kerry Siggins

[00:00:06] Welcome back to Girl, Take the Lead, and I'm your host, Yolanda Canny. Today's conversation with Kerry Siggins starts a little differently. Before we talk about hard conversations, feedback, and trust, and what happens when we get defensive, Kerry invited me to do something she often does with her own team. Take three breaths. So wherever you are, you're invited to join us. Here you go.

[00:00:33] Oh, Kerry, welcome to Girl, Take the Lead. This is going to be such a great conversation. Thank you for joining us. Oh, I can't wait. I'm really excited to dive in with you today. Yeah. Now when we met to kind of plan our episode, we said, maybe we could try something a little bit different. And breathwork seemed to be a real element of your work, which we'll learn more about. But how about we start with a little breathwork?

[00:01:02] And if you wouldn't mind kind of walking us through some of that. I love that. Yes. I start every meeting I lead with three deep breaths because everybody's rushing around so much and our nervous systems are frazzled. And we have to come in and make tough decisions as leaders. And so when we ground ourselves, we can just show up with so much more presence. So I would love to lead us through it.

[00:01:27] Do it. All right, let's do it. Okay, so both feet on the on the floor, and really feel your feet on the floor. So it's like you're rooted, you're grounded through your feet.

[00:01:39] And then close your eyes and take a deep breath all the way into your belly. And then sigh it out. Let's do that two more times. And then before you open your eyes, just think of an intention of how you want to show up. And then you can open your eyes.

[00:02:27] Very cool. Very cool. That feels so good. I hope people that were driving did not do that. Wait until you get home. Yes, yes. Well, if you're driving, you can also just do it with your eyes open. I should have said that if you're driving. But yes, you can always take deep three deep breaths. It's amazing what it does to calm you in literally 30 seconds. Wow, it does. Does the Brit. It's coming back to us and ourselves, isn't it, when we do that? So that's just such a good part.

[00:02:56] So let's, if you would, please introduce yourself to the audience and tell them about your book. Sure, sure. So I'm Kerry Siggins. I'm the CEO of a manufacturing company called Stone Age. We're based in Durango, Colorado, and we manufacture high pressure water jetting tools. So basically high-tech squirt guns on steroids. And our tools and products, our systems are used to clean the various dirtiest of applications

[00:03:20] like refineries and petrochem plants, food processing plants, shipyards, sewers, anywhere you'd use ultra high pressure water to clean. So it's a niche industry that keeps the supply chain running. And we're very proud of the work that we do. I also have this whole other side of me that's very passionate about leadership and ownership. I have a book called The Ownership Mindset, which is my first book.

[00:03:47] And it's really around how do you take ownership for everything that happens in your life? And then how do you express that through the way that you lead and manage others, especially as you're inspiring them to think like owners as well? We're an employee-owned company. And so getting people to understand what it means to think and act like an owner and how to embrace that, especially when there's a lot of fear around what happens if I speak up? What happens if I give my boss feedback? What happens if I raise my hand?

[00:04:17] What happens if I fail? All that fear causes us to hold ourselves back and not really own it. So I have spent a lot of time thinking about how do you help people understand what that means and feel inspired to be that way through psychological safety within your organization. And then my second book is Talk With Trust. And that just came out here recently. And I get asked a lot about feedback because that seems to be the thing that really holds

[00:04:45] people back from owning it, whether it's they're afraid to say what needs to be said or where they don't take feedback very well. They get defensive. They're protecting and defending. And so I thought this would be a great second book to go in alignment with the ownership mindset. So the ownership mindset asks, what am I blaming or who am I blaming? And Talk With Trust asks, what am I avoiding? What hard conversation am I avoiding?

[00:05:12] And what are the consequences of not having that conversation? Because we've conflated all the reasons why we shouldn't have the conversation. But what are the consequences of not having it? So what do you think is at the heart of feedback? Trust. That's why the book is called Talk With Trust. Trust. To have the courage to say what needs to be said, whether that's discussing a performance

[00:05:39] issue or sharing how you experienced a situation or even just telling your boss, like, hey, I have this idea and I'd like to try it. Those things can feel really scary if there's not trust. Trust. And the reason why we don't have the difficult conversations is because we sometimes feel like there's not enough trust that the relationship can handle that conversation.

[00:06:06] And many times it's just a story we've told ourselves. But those are the consequences that we worry about. What happens if I damage this relationship? What happens if I say this the wrong way? What happens if this person doesn't like me anymore or quits or gets angry or cries? All of those things really come back to having trust in yourself and having trust in the relationship. So that's what I think is a foundation for feedback really is.

[00:06:32] I also think sometimes that if I have spoken my truth about something in a way that I, you know, I've given myself time to think through and it's not just from the emotional defensive side and the person can't align with me and they decide to leave the relationship.

[00:07:01] I have to create space for that to happen in being truthful. Yes. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with you. And, you know, and I talk about this in the book as well. And our company coach, Barbara Gormley, really clarified it so well. And that is you can only be responsible for how you show up when you're giving feedback.

[00:07:30] And it's your responsibility to be truthful, to be direct, to be kind, to be helpful as you are sharing your experience. But you have no control over what the other person is going to do, how they're going to react. And you have to, you know, detach from that because you have no responsibility in that. You only have responsibility in how you show up. But we are attached to that because we are afraid of what's going to happen with that relationship.

[00:07:59] But I always tell people how a person reacts in that moment is purely information. And then how they handle it afterwards, it continues to give you information. And yes, sometimes somebody might not be able to handle the feedback and can exit the relationship. And you have to say, that's okay, because they are responsible for themselves. And I spoke my truth and I did it in a way that is kind and helpful and direct.

[00:08:27] And then I have to give them the space to do with what they're going to do with it. It reminds me of the Mel Robbins let them theory, right? Like let them. And so you have to just let them do what they're going to do. You can't control it. And then you have to say, okay, but now let me. Now what do I do in this? And I think that her book, her philosophy with that really ties in well with mine, because

[00:08:54] you do have to say, I'm not responsible for how this other person chooses to respond to my feedback. I also think another good tie-in for you is when Brene Brown says being clear is kind. Kindness is clarity. Clarity is kindness. Oh my gosh, I use it all the time. In fact, I quote her in this book. And, and that is so true.

[00:09:22] We conflate all of these different things about what we're supposed to do as leaders or as friends or anything. And, and, and we forget that clarity is the most important piece, especially as leaders. And I remind myself every time I really don't want to have a difficult conversation with an employee. I remind myself clarity is kindness and clarity is leadership. If you are not clear, then you are not doing your job as a leader.

[00:09:51] And so that helps me get over that, that like, oh, like what's more important, this person liking me or me being a leader who provides that sort of clarity. And I have found that even though not all of my feedback sessions have gone well, and I've certainly damaged relationships, even when I've delivered feedback. Well, I still can look at myself and say, I did the right thing because I was clear.

[00:10:16] So I, it's a helpful trick to like get you over the hump when you really don't want to do something. No clarity is kindness and clarity is leadership. I love that. One of the things I loved about your book was when you talked about the share mindset. Yeah. Maybe you can share that, share the share mindset. Yes. So the shares model is, is just an acronym.

[00:10:41] It's just a way to remind yourself on what you need to do to prepare for the conversation and then how to stay in the conversation, how to be able to articulate your experience and sustain dialogue and to create a path forward for someone and to really stay grounded. So it's a, it's a preparation model. And it's, and it really helps you stay grounded in the conversation.

[00:11:06] And, and there's lots of feedback models out there that, that, that say similar things. This just really works well for me because it has the preparation piece, which is, is to specify your outcome and to have your facts and feelings ready. And then it has a process of what you do when you are in the conversation and that's articulate your experience, reflect with questions and dialogue, endorse a path forward, and then stay grounded.

[00:11:31] So it's this really comprehensive tool that you can use to help you go into a conversation and be your very best. Again, you can't control how the other person is going to react, but if you prepare and, and use the share, prepare and use the shares model, you are much more likely to have a productive conversation than one that, that devolves into conflict or, or defensiveness or some sort of negative emotional response.

[00:11:58] Do you also think it's good for people receiving feedback? Oh, absolutely. So I have two, my two favorite letters in the shares model are the A and the R. So the A is articulate your experience and the R is reflect with questions and dialogue. And this is where you can really build the relationship. So the articulate your experience helps you own that, that no matter what you're talking about, it's always your perception.

[00:12:28] When you're perceiving something, even though there might be observable facts, it's still your perception. And so even though we can use I statements like I feel or I think it can still feel, I don't know, judgmental or conclusive about somebody's behavior. Like I feel that you're disrespectful. We can say, I felt it, I'm owning it, but it still is a judgment on behavior.

[00:12:50] Whereas if you say, I just want to share how I experienced this situation and I might be telling myself a story about it. And that's why I want to have this conversation because our relationship is really important to me. When you said X, Y, Z, Yolanda, like I really felt like it was disrespectful. And I just want to know, is that, is that how you feel? And that just invites this whole dialogue.

[00:13:17] It's you owning that it's your experience and it may be wrong. Your interpretation may be inaccurate. And then the R is reflect with dialogue, with questions and dialogues. When you say, is this how you experienced it? Is that how you meant it? You open it up for the other person to be able to tell you what's really going on with them. This is so powerful. If you just use the A and the R in your feedback conversations and your high stakes conversations,

[00:13:44] you're much more likely to build trust and have a dialogue about what's going on because you're not accusing somebody of something. You're simply just asking them to have a conversation with you about an experience you had. Yeah. Well, I think you bring up to a way to listen that isn't defensive. Like if you're coming from curiosity and especially compassionate curiosity, like what else could be going on here?

[00:14:14] It gives you a chance to, you know, take that breath, receive the feedback and let the defensiveness go. Yes, absolutely. And say, you know, am I supposed to learn something here? Or maybe I don't have the skill set that this person's giving me feedback on or something else could be going on.

[00:14:38] And I think that's what you kind of open up a little bit with your, with this process you've outlined. Exactly. And you want the other person to share. At least if you're a good leader, you are. I think a lot of leaders are, are, are getting so nervous about giving feedback that they rush through it, that they, they skip that curiosity part and they don't invite the other person into the conversation. And when you invite the other person in the conversation, there's so much more likely to be able to hear what you say, because it isn't just like, I've already made this judgment about you.

[00:15:08] You know, I'm inviting you to share with me what you're experiencing, what you felt like, tell me what's going on here. And that allows the other person to feel heard. And when you, when you feel heard, you're much less likely to protect and defend. And so this process really allows you to, it creates a space for someone to lean in. Now, somebody might not, they, they might not be a person who takes feedback. Well, they're always going to go into that protect and defend mode.

[00:15:33] But, but this is at least giving you a much better chance to have a dialogue about it. And it helps you understand if your perception is wrong. Like I, I just did a podcast on this this week. Like, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be accurate? Do you want to be right? Or do you want to be curious? Do you want to be right? Or do you want to have influence? Do you want to be right? Or do you want to improve the relationship? Because every time we go in wanting to be right, we're going to go in with our ears closed and our lips moving.

[00:16:04] And if you ask questions, you are going to get information that is going to help you be right. Or be accurate or, or understand the relationship better or understand the situation better. And to me, I'd much rather be accurate. And the only way you can do that is to, to, to ask questions and you get the added benefit of the other person feels heard. They don't feel like you've already made a judgment against them. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:30] Cause I, I found in my experience in corporate that, um, there was always more going on. Yes. And I was just a small part of the whole process, not even on the spectrum, a little bit, but

[00:16:52] if someone took the time to understand like all the aspects of it, I think there would be a wholeness to it. Not just one part of it. Yes. I got feedback once that I had been disrespectful to a senior leader because I got emotional in a

[00:17:19] meeting, I was trying to achieve something that I thought my boss's boss wanted. And this senior leader was kind of a bully about, you know, pushing me away and discarding my information. The feedback I got back from my line was I had been disrespectful to him.

[00:17:43] Um, and I, I couldn't believe what I was hearing. It was in the moment I was said, but there, there was more going on. Did, did you get that he was a bully in the, in the room and that I was being pushed away and discarded and not listened to. And it didn't matter to the, to these people, but it mattered to me.

[00:18:10] You know, I mean, I, I knew that there was a whole bigger picture to it than, than was being. And I was kind of told, no, you need to get along with this guy. And of course I never did. No, that doesn't work. Why tell me? I, I was always, you want me to do what? Yeah. And that was always very difficult, but I think that was the hardest feedback. How about you?

[00:18:40] Did you, have you gotten some feedback that you, oh yeah. So similar. And, and I love that you share this example because, uh, and I'll share mine in a moment, but if, if the person who gave you that feedback would have used the shares model, uh, you know, and really thought about what's the outcome that I want. Like, you know, do I want you all to, to recognize that this was, um, that this was concerning. And I also want to make sure that I understand from her perspective, right.

[00:19:07] If they would have gone through the shares model and then said, Hey, this was the experience, but tell me what was going on with you. And before just coming in, right. They just wanted to get it over with. It was like, okay, well we need to reprimand her. And that's the whole being right thing. Yeah. Instead of like, is this accurate? And should I make sure that I understand all perspectives? So imagine how much different it would have felt for you. If this person would have said, Hey, this is what happened. This is what the experience was that I experienced or that he experienced.

[00:19:37] Let's talk about this. What was going on with you? You know, um, you, you obviously got emotional. There was a reason that you did before we talk about what the outcome needs to be. Hey, I'd like to understand what was happening with you. Yeah. That would have changed everything for you. Wouldn't have, wouldn't have. Yeah. And I probably would have spoken to that senior man at that senior leader again, because after that, there was no trust. Yeah. There was none. It was completely broken.

[00:20:05] And I thought to myself, isn't this interesting, the kind of senior leader that they're bringing in to this organization that's supposed to be building on honesty and support and healing. We've got this guy. And eventually he, he had to leave because of some other things in, but I thought this was so interesting the way that this played out. Yeah. Because he wanted to be right. Yes.

[00:20:33] And, and that is what happens. And when you want to be right, you go to your corner and you send the other person to their corner. Even if that person, like you didn't want to go into the corner, right? No, no, no. But all of a sudden, when you're approached at it that way with no space to have a dialogue about what was happening, you go to your corners. And once people are in their corners, it takes skillful communication to get out of it.

[00:20:58] And if there's an authority issue, which you clearly had in a situation and that person of authority isn't going to back out, then it makes it really hard for, for you to be able to do that. And this is a mistake that I see all the time with leaders and I've made it myself. And, and, and the feedback experience that I'll share with you made, made me feel that way too. And I really had to pull myself out of it to make sure that I didn't stay in my corner, because if I would have stayed in the corner, it would have devolved into a much more toxic.

[00:21:27] Probably what I did. Exactly, exactly. But I'm so glad you shared that because it really goes to show you how the shares model can help you have a much better conversation. The outcome still could have been, you know, Yolanda, you know, I'd like you to go apologize to this person. And I also want to acknowledge that you were being shut down. And now let's figure out a path forward so that, you know, that your voice is heard at the table.

[00:21:57] The outcome could have still been the same, except that now everybody's shoved into their corners and people leave the organizations because it doesn't work. I mean, I'm assuming that you ultimately left too. A little bit. I left a while after he left though. I mean, he was it all was ever the same? No, no. No, I mean, the distrust was there and, and I could feel that things were shifting.

[00:22:25] Like I think in an organization, when these things start to happen, like your perception of how you thought it was, you're realizing it's changing. New values are emerging. Are you aligned with those? Maybe not. Like, I don't think that senior leaders should be bullies. I, something about that just doesn't ring right for me.

[00:22:52] And then, you know, so eventually you begin to shift and see change. But I think that was a real learning experience for me to understand, to trust. I could trust my intuition about this. And yes, could I have handled it differently? Absolutely. I can own me being emotional in the moment.

[00:23:19] I wish that I could have shifted things for the entire organization, but that wasn't my job. You know, this was just the first step, I think, in me opening my eyes up to the organization a little bit differently. And this is so brilliant because this is exactly what starts to happen.

[00:23:45] And if we don't hold our leaders accountable to having conversations that allow people to stay in dialogue, to have space, to make changes, to take ownership. And for you to understand, you know, is my perception actually accurate so that I'm having the right conversation, which it doesn't sound like the person who talked to you was having the right conversation with you. This is how trust starts to erode.

[00:24:11] And so, you know, maybe you didn't leave for six months or for a year, but you certainly never trust it again. And the disengagement starts to happen until finally it's like, okay, I've got to go do something different or I'm looking for a new job or whatever happens. And so these are the things that quietly erode trust. And it happens and it happens so fast. And, and, and it's because we have leaders who aren't skilled at having these types of conversations.

[00:24:35] So your example is the experience of so many people, so many people who have these leaders, who they expect to be able to have skillful conversations, who haven't been trained in it, who are dealing with their own baggage, their own stuff that's going on. And they bring that into these conversations and it damages trust and they're not even getting the accurate information about what's happening. So it's, it's so common.

[00:25:01] I think also too, we're probably not very skilled at helping people manage change. Yeah. Right.

[00:25:12] Because behind the scene really was a shift in culture that was going on from I would describe it as being a very femininely driven, caring culture to something that was more restrictive and competitive. The, the political structure shifted. It was like somebody had been elected overnight and things had changed instantly. Policy change.

[00:25:42] Yeah. We're not real good about trusting what we're seeing. Yeah. Like I think intuitively we can get a hit or two about, you know, politically this, what my feedback was trying to tell me, I think was you be careful girl, because the political structure has changed. Yeah. This guy will nail you.

[00:26:11] If you don't play the game, the way that he's outlined it. Yep. And I think that was the message I received and it was like, okay, I get it now. I get what's happening, but I don't think we could. I know that that leader who was talking to me made it very personal about me, but it wasn't like we could see that the political structure was changing. Yeah.

[00:26:33] And maybe it was intentionally changing or maybe it was unintentionally changing, but no matter what is happening, people are left to tell themselves stories about why it's happening. And the story you told yourself may be accurate. It may not be accurate, but you don't know because you are left to your own devices. And let's face it, you know, when things are changing and especially when we perceive it to be for the worse, we're going to tell ourselves a negative story about it.

[00:27:00] And that's why leaders have to be transparent in this communication about what's going on. And so, yeah, change management, it changes a huge place where trust starts to devolve, especially with leaders who aren't transparent about what's happening. And to those who aren't aware and acknowledging the shift that is happening because of that change.

[00:27:24] And so, yeah, this is this is why we need so much leadership training is why people need my talk with trust leadership experience and books like this, because we can really screw it up. And then we lose great people in our organization, whether they, you know, quietly quit and just become disengaged and just do the bare minimum to get by or they actively leave our organizations or we force somebody out who's really great because we're not interested in hearing what they have to say.

[00:27:53] So, Carrie, I don't think you answered the question that what was the worst feedback or the hardest? I wouldn't say worst. I've gotten some hard feedback. Yeah. So I write about this in the book. So I think the most that most difficult feedback that I got, also the most powerful was from my right hand man in the company, effectively my COO. He wasn't that by title, but and we were having some conflict and it had been building, but I wasn't aware that it had been building, at least not.

[00:28:22] At least it wasn't building like that for me, like it was for him. And it all blew up in a meeting in my office one day, I mean, actually right here. And, and he told me, you know, you think that you're this inspiring CEO and that you're disrupting the industry, but really what you are is erratic. You're hard to work for. You're the problem. So it was this very emotional, very personal, very triggering feedback that he gave me.

[00:28:49] And it took all of my skill to not tell him to get out of my office and that he was fired. But I really tried to live, to walk my walk, not just talk it. And so I took a moment and I took a deep breath and I said, you know, I'm going to have to process this and let's just circle back tomorrow. And, and I went home and I went through all the emotions, right? I cried and I was angry and I was going to fire him.

[00:29:13] And then I was like, I I'm going to quit because I, if my right hand guy thinks this clearly, I'm not a good CEO, all of those different things that you go through when you hear something that is really, really hurtful. Um, and then after I went through that range of emotions, I do what I always do. And I said, okay, what can I own in this feedback? Um, that's a huge part of the ownership mindset. And what I write about is that there's always something to own in every situation, even if it's just someone's perception of you, uh, uh, that's their perception. That's their reality.

[00:29:42] So there's a conversation that's worth having. So I decided to focus on the word erratic and I really examined it and I could see how my love of new ideas. And as you know, it's been called chasing shiny objects or fear of missing out on an opportunity, uh, really was, was, was damaging, um, the company. And, and I thought it was how I was going to grow, right?

[00:30:04] Push everybody to do more instead of staying really calm and focused and, and, um, and more, I don't know, thoughtful and precise in how I was making decisions. And so I decided to really, to take that to heart and I completely changed my leadership style. So I'm going to be cool, calm and unflappable, a cool, calm, collected and unflappable leader. And I want to be much more disciplined in how we look at new ideas because I can understand us putting a strain on the organization.

[00:30:34] And ultimately the relationship was damaged and he had to leave the company. We left, um, on good terms with the transition. So it wasn't a shock to the company. Uh, but the, it never, our relationship never recovered. Um, even though he apologized and said, I, I wanted to make you mad. Um, I was hurt and I wanted to hurt you back. Uh, and, uh, and so I appreciated that and I understood where he was coming from, but you know, that's part of the reason why I wrote this book is that,

[00:31:03] that experience showed me that even though there was something that I could own in it, the way that he did it broke down trust. And, uh, and because I can take feedback no matter what, I always want to take people's feedback. Um, and so even though it was, it was very poorly delivered, I could still do something with it, but that could have like crushed another person.

[00:31:26] Uh, and, uh, and so I want to help leaders be able to handle themselves in these moments where it is a high stakes conversation, whether it's planned or unplanned like this one and not damage relationships like that, because it was really difficult. It was painful. So it wasn't kind. That would be one thing that was missing. It was direct. It was very direct. Um, what else do you see there?

[00:31:52] It wasn't, it wasn't particularly helpful either. And that's, that's, that's what I think that the makeup of best feedback is, is it needs to be direct, right? Don't sugarcoat. Don't like dance around the situation because then people don't, aren't really clear on what you're trying to, the point you're trying to make. Um, and you can say it in a kind way. Like I care enough about you to, to, to, to share this with you and it needs to be helpful. Like there's something that's constructive, right? You're, uh, you think you're disruptive.

[00:32:22] You're really erratic. That's not helpful feedback, right? That is, I want to trigger you feedback. And so, you know, obviously he was, he was angered in the moment and had an emotional outburst. That's why the final S in the shares model is stay emotionally grounded because when you do things like that, it, it does damage a relationship. Um, uh, it was missing, it was missing the component of trust.

[00:32:46] So I appreciated the directness because I heard it, but the only reason that I could do something with it is because I decided that I was going to look for ways to own the feedback and I was going to do something about it. Um, that's, that's the whole reason why I wrote the ownership mindset is, is that I believe that you can take responsibility for anything and everything in your life.

[00:33:10] Um, but, but I think that a much less evolved person, like that would have been crushing and, and it would have either caused them to go in their corner, um, and get really defensive and, you know, say like, you know, Like it probably would have been me. Yeah.

[00:33:28] Like, you know, like to have some cuss words and like, yeah, that would have been bad or it would have crushed them and, and made them feel really unsafe and like in a, you know, basically pull back within themselves and retreat and, and make themselves small. And that's not helpful. So a good feedback has those three components. It also sounded like he made it very personal. Very. Oh yeah. He knew it was going to be hurtful.

[00:33:51] And I think sometimes when you're able to point towards the behavior, as opposed to making it about that person and judging that person. Yes. You're showing them changes that they can make. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. When you, yeah. When you say things like you're erratic, you're making a judgment on someone's personality. Right.

[00:34:20] Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. That's so good to see. Um, because I, if you are, there's no other place to go. If you've been attacked personally, you're going to respond to defend personally. Like your, your body is going to go. Well, like you said, I need time to process it.

[00:34:44] For me, it would be like, I need time to go get beyond the protection that I would automatically go into. Yeah. Um, such good examples. We can give, I can give you some more. We all do. Right. I mean, this is hard stuff. It is hard stuff.

[00:35:03] I mean, look, most business problems are human problems and most human problems are communication problems because we just don't have the training and the practice that to, to have these types of conversations. We get all in our own way with all of our own triggers and our own stories and our own lenses. And, uh, and so, and, and our own lack of emotional management, especially in the moment. And so we all screw things up.

[00:35:32] I've certainly screwed up my fair share of these conversations too. They're hard. It's what makes us human. Uh, but we can get better at it if we're intentional about it. If we really practice things like the shares of all, I mean, doing just a little bit of preparation ahead of time can help things so much. But if you go into any conversation and even if it's in the moment, like this particular one is just like, and just, you can even say like, I mean, if he would have said, I'm feeling really emotionally charged right now.

[00:36:02] And I'm going to say something that I'm going to regret. And, uh, and I don't want to do that. Let's come back to this conversation. Like having that kind of awareness and emotional control can stop things from happening. Then he could have gone home and thought, use the shares model and come back and had the real conversation with me, which was very different than you're erratic and you're the problem.

[00:36:25] It was that he felt like I didn't believe that he had it in him to go to the next level of executive management, which was definitely not what my intention was. But I realized after he shared that with me the next day, when he had calmed down too, that I had unintentionally said something that set him off. But I didn't realize that in the moment. Um, I didn't think what I said was triggering to him because it wasn't triggering to me and I didn't say it to be triggering.

[00:36:52] So, you know, that's, that is what has to happen in these conversations. They don't have to happen in a moment. You could just like, I chose not to respond to him or to react to him and said, I've got to process this. And I could come back in a much healthier place. It's okay. If you're feeling like you're going to have an outburst and you're going to say something that you are going to regret to just say, you know what? I I'm just feeling really emotional about this right now or really angry or upset or frustrated. And, um, and it's really important to me that we have that, that this is handled well.

[00:37:21] I need, I need 10 minutes. I need an hour. I need to come back tomorrow. It's okay to ask for that space. In fact, when you feel triggered space is typically the only thing that's going to get you out of it. Now that, that space might be a breath or two, or it might be, you know, going for a walk, or it might be sleeping on it and coming back the next day, but it is okay to take that pause. Yeah. That's how I wish I, this is bringing me back.

[00:37:48] You know, right now, I think, um, I'm at episode 315 that I'm putting up, right? Episode one was about finding your voice. Yeah. And my, uh, sister-in-law who's a performer was helping me see that when I get in those moments that I can take that pause and I can physically move and change and say, you know what?

[00:38:16] What I need to process. Just like what you were saying. It's so great to come back to episode one. I love that. That's amazing. When you're talking, but yeah, that's where we started. That is difficult as hell in the moment. Yeah. To intervene in our own triggering, but you just gave us some great, great ideas on how to do it. Yeah. Cause I think breath work could have been good in the moment.

[00:38:46] And also saying, Hey, I'm feeling very triggered right now. Probably what I'm going to say is not very good. So let me go take some time. Come back to this. Yeah. Um, I also like to say, you know, I'm practicing here. Yes. That's almost like having, you know, those, um, uh, bumper stickers. You'll see like have patients. It's a student driver. Yes.

[00:39:12] I feel like I'm putting that on my forehead going and practicing how to talk about these things. So maybe a little awkward, but give me a moment here. People are so forgiving about that. They give you lots of space. Oh, if you own it. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm really glad that you brought that up because I, I think that can deescalate a situation before it gets escalated. If you know you're having a hard conversation and you're really nervous about it, just saying I'm going to have a hard conversation with you.

[00:39:39] And I'm nervous about how I'm going to say this and I really don't want to screw it up, but I might, you know, would you mind just letting me get, get it all out? Yeah. Uh, and you know, just, just hear me out for a minute or, you know, give me a little bit of grace if it comes out a little bit, you know, clunky or, uh, people are people then there know that, okay, this is going to be a hard conversation and you've already asked them for their compassion and people are so much more likely to give it.

[00:40:07] So that deescalates a situation before it escalates. And I think it's a hundred percent. Okay. To say, I'm really nervous about having this conversation. I, you know, I'm, I'm afraid I'm going to screw it up. So just bear with me, please. It changes the whole dynamic. I also think when you're talking about the S in the model there to say what you want the outcome to be.

[00:40:31] So like, I'm really nervous about doing this, but I, I want to presence, you know, either understanding and compassion with each other or empathy for each other, or some kind of understanding that, that almost directs where we're going to go. So exactly. Yeah. And so that's so good that you have that as part of the, yeah, it's the most important part. You can't go into a conversation while people do go into a conversation without thinking

[00:41:01] what is the outcome that I want here? Uh, but most of them don't. And it's really powerful because it helps, especially if things get emotional, it helps you reground. Look, an outcome is that I really want to have a better relationship with this person. So I better not say something to react just because they're reacting because then I'm not going to achieve that outcome. So, uh, it's really important to make sure that you have that, that awareness around what you're trying to achieve.

[00:41:27] And if the outcome is, you know, I want to be heard or, um, you know, I want to make sure this person knows exactly how angry I am. Then you haven't, you haven't prepared at the last S which is staying emotionally grounded and you should probably wait, um, to, to come in and to say, you know, I want this person to admit that I'm right. Um, is probably, you're probably going to not get the outcome. You're already in your corner, which you're going to push another person to that corner.

[00:41:54] So if it isn't a positive outcome, um, that you're going into a conversation with, then you probably need to do a little bit more work to get yourself in a place to be able to have it so that you can say, I truly do want a positive outcome. I love this Carrie. Cause people can use this no matter what. It doesn't matter any situation. You can use this with your spouse, your children, your coworkers, your neighbor, anybody. It's just so universal.

[00:42:20] So everybody go get the book so that you can really study this and see that this process is so important for all of us. And Carrie, what a great, great conversation. Thank you so much. I could go on forever with more examples. If you're ever short of examples of feedback gone awry, let me know. All the ways to not do it, right? I can give you a few.

[00:42:50] Is there anything else though that you'd like to just leave our audience with before we end? Yeah, I think there's one thing. I think that, you know, we go, we don't want to have these conversations because we're afraid of the consequences, but what we often don't give enough thought about or wait to is the consequences of not having the conversation.

[00:43:16] And so if there is something, there's a conversation that you know that you need to have, that you are avoiding, um, it's okay to think about, you know, the consequences of that conversation. It's also worthwhile to say that might be a story that you're telling yourself. And if you use the shares model, you can articulate your experience and make sure that you're understanding what's really going on, but really challenge yourself to dive into the consequence

[00:43:40] of not having it because truth withheld in my experience always makes things worse. Whether it's you disengaging from a relationship or trust starting to erode or frustration building, um, or a person not knowing where they stand and they continue to make the same mistakes or do the same things that would be helpful if they had this feedback.

[00:44:05] We don't put enough weight into the consequences of not having it, which can help motivate you to do it. So that's what I'd like to leave everybody with. Oh, so good. So let's tell our audience where they can get the book and your podcast so that they can listen in on some more episodes with you. Yes. Yeah. And how to follow you. Yeah. So everything about me is on my website, kerrysiggins.com. It's about to go through a big refresh.

[00:44:32] So I'm really excited about that, but, um, every, my book, both of my books are there. Um, you can find them on, at any bookstore, Amazon, um, uh, bookshop.org, or you can go order it from your local bookstore. I'm a big believer in supporting local businesses. Uh, uh, and then my podcast, the Kerry Siggins podcast, uh, is where I really incubate these ideas. And I know that if I'm dealing with it as a leader, because I've been running a company

[00:45:00] for 20 years and everything I talk about is not theory. It's built through scar tissue. I know that someone else is also dealing with this. And so it's, it's just practical advice, how to handle these difficult situations that we face as leaders and not just handle them at the surface level, but to really go deeper and understand what is actually driving, uh, what's happening here, what's happening underneath.

[00:45:26] And it, it's, it's a goal to help people just go a little bit deeper because again, most business problems are people problems. And most people problems are communication problems, you know, identity problems, people being attached to the way things are, what they believe about themselves. And, and when we can really understand that about ourselves and others, then we can start to get to the root of, of the true organizational issues that, that we have. Hmm. So Carrie Siggins.com, um, that's where you can find everything.

[00:45:54] I'm, I do a lot of posting on LinkedIn, so you can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can just search for Carrie Siggins. Great. Carrie. So Carrie, what advice would you give your 20 something self today? Oh God. I know. So, yeah, I am. Um, so I, I love the Enneagram. Um, I'm a three in the Enneagram, which is an achiever and, uh, achievers are very much

[00:46:19] driven by, um, by status, by recognition, by, you know, being perceived as amazing. And, uh, and so I really had a self-worth issue and it wasn't coming from a confidence issue. It came from feeling like I just always needed to prove myself. So I always had to perform. I always had to prove myself. I always had to push myself.

[00:46:46] And, uh, and if I wasn't pushing, if I wasn't doing, if I didn't have, you know, every single thing on my plate, you know, going at the same time, all those plates, putting it there at the same time that I was somehow not worthy, that I was somehow failing, um, that I somehow wouldn't be successful. And, uh, and it got me really far in life, but it also took me down some dark places, right? There's always a, uh, a yin and a yang to everything.

[00:47:11] And so I would tell myself that I don't have to constantly prove and perform that I am. I am good enough the way that I am. I'm perfect the way that I am. And I'm just learning and figuring things out and it's okay. If it doesn't all go well, you don't have to constantly beat yourself up and constantly go after that. See, look, I do deserve a seat at this table. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:40] Right there with you. Yeah. Right. That's such great advice. I would have been your friend hanging out going, what else you got to say? Exactly. Exactly. And I, you know, I'm really grateful for it because I mean, I was a CEO age 30 and, um, but I, I was, so it has brought some amazing things to my life, but it has also been painful and it has cost me relationships. It has cost me relationship with myself.

[00:48:06] Um, I have, I have chosen to pursue success and achievement at the cost of experience and, and we all do that, right. That's part of being young and figuring our things ourselves out. But, um, yeah, I really missed out on some things in life because I was so focused on, on making sure that I was seen as, as successful and, and just constantly performing. Yeah. Yeah. I was the one constantly driven, like, yeah. Take the next opportunity.

[00:48:35] Go, go, go, go, go. Yeah. I know. And it comes with a cost. It does. Um, it comes with a cost, but you know, we did figure that out when my, my foresight is as good as my hindsight, then man, I will just be rocking life. I'll be there with you. There's one thing though, that I like to do when, um, I'm inspired by a guest who comes

[00:49:01] on and I have an idea on a card for you that would be inspired by our, uh, by our episode. I think it's going to say I am enough and yeah, I think that might be really good. And I've got an idea on the design already. So then my biggest crux is I'm not enough. And my mom always says to me, cause she was like, how could you feel that way? Like, and you, you're so self-confidence. And I was like, my, my, I'm not enough.

[00:49:30] Didn't manifest itself of me not believing in myself. I always believed in myself. Um, but it was always that I wasn't doing enough. I wasn't good enough. So prove and perform. And so it was really about that drive. Um, but it has been the bane of my existence. I am not enough. Therefore go prove it, go prove it, go prove it. Yeah. Right there with your girlfriend. Yeah, I know we are. We are so similar in so many ways.

[00:49:58] So it'll be my pleasure to put that one together. I love that. Great. That's perfect. That's that, that, that's so me. All righty. Well, thank you again so much for joining us and, and really helping us see how not only about trust and about feedback, but clear actions that can help us. And I think that's brilliant. So thank you so much. Well, thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:50:26] And thank you for sharing your experience and being vulnerable with me. It was such a pertinent and perfect example to be able to walk through why the shares model is needed. So I really appreciate you, uh, you sharing that. Sharing that one. Oh, good. I, I now I see that it does serve a purpose. Exactly. They always, there's always a gift in everything. Even if we don't see it in the moment. Thanks, Carrie. Thank you. Carrie, thank you so much for this conversation.

[00:50:55] And all the links to connect with Carrie, including her books and podcasts are available in the show notes. And next time on Girl Take the Lead, I'll be back with a soundbite inspired by this conversation. Defensiveness. What is it trying to tell us? It's a good one. Until then, remember, you don't have to prove or perform your way into being enough. You already are.

[00:51:24] Thanks for listening. Bye.